4 ms·

As I said, when many of "us" started, it wasn't yet the cool thing to do either. No, I don't understand what you are trying to say? What ARE you actually thinki

by Tichy 14y ago

As I said, when many of "us" started, it wasn't yet the cool thing to do either. No, I don't understand what you are trying to say? What ARE you actually thinking when you make your career choices? Do you really think "I probably won't get a promotion because I am black(?), so in the long run I'll probably make more money as a garbage man? OK, garbage man it is..."? I mean, I'll spontaneously zero in on that one argument: suppose people of race/gender x are known to make less money in a given career than people of another gender/race. Does that really explain why there would be less of those people in the given profession? Seems to me that for that to be true, there would have to be other professions where the disadvantaged people would earn more. Is that really the case for IT? As a black(?) guy, are there other (legal) professions where you are likely to make more money than if you would go into IT? Presumably discrimination would range across all jobs (even white garbage men might make more money than black garbage men), so it should be cancelled out as a reason for choosing a career. Sorry if I don't understand you, but when I got my first computer I was 12. I really wasn't thinking about my career. All I knew was that I liked computer games and that it was cool that I could make the computer do things (actually make things appear on the TV). How would your gender or race change your reaction in the same situation? I really don't get it. And by the way, at the time the computer games of the day were Pong and Pacman, so nothing violent that would drive away girls. Edit: sorry for my extreme examples (garbage men), I just like to use ridiculous examples to make things clear but often people take that the wrong way. I mean I use them for the sake of logic, not to offend.

msbarnett 14y ago
> As I said, when many of "us" started, it wasn't yet the cool thing to do either. No, I don't understand what you are trying to say? No, you clearly don't understand anything that anybody who doesn't share your experiences is trying to say about this subject. This isn't about "coolness". This is about whether or not something even seems like it's a possibility for someone. When I wanted to be in software, growing up, I didn't question whether or not it was something that "someone like me" could do, because everyone I ever saw, in magazines or books or on TV, was already like me. When I told relatives and strangers alike what I wanted to be when I grew up, they didn't discourage me or tell me that "people like me" couldn't be programmers. They didn't tell me that programming was a job for the other gender and that I was being silly for wanting to violate norms; they were supportive and encouraging, because everybody they knew of in software was like me. Women grow up today, in 2012, being steered away from software because it "isn't for girls". Black kids grow up today, in 2012, being told that software isn't for people like them. White boys are statistically bought their own computer much earlier than minorities or girls, because it's seen by people as a logical career to encourage them in, thereby perpetuating the structural disadvantages that gave rise to the white male programmer as "norm" in the first place. And every damn time someone dares broach the subject and advocate for putting a more diverse public face on the field so that it might actually stop being such a toxic monoculture, the white male majority roles its eyes and complains that they haven't experienced any of the problems that minorities are experiencing in the field, that they wouldn't have even noticed that a speaker line-up at a major conference was all just like them. Of course you wouldn't have noticed that. That's the privilege that comes with being in the majority.
- danilocampos 14y ago
  Thank you so very much for making this point in this way. I wasn't sure how else to explain something so seemingly obvious.
  - Tichy 14y ago
    Well you seem to have made it into IT against all odds. Must have been quite the battle.
    - anu_gupta 14y ago
      People are trying to discuss this seriously, and all you have is passive aggressive sarcasm? This isn't a personal attack on you and your lifestyle and your people. It's a call to broaden the church.
      - ceol 14y ago
        The problem is many of them take it as a personal attack, as evident by the comments here, and they can't even see how that is the problem. I'm really proud of some of the comments like yours, danilocampos', and msbarnett's. It's just a shame you're being met with the same crap most of these conversations have in the programming community.
        Tichy 14y ago
        "many of them" Oh the irony...
      - Tichy 14y ago
        Of course it is an attack. A conference was shut down. If in the future all conferences have to make an effort for diversity, it is a tax on all of us - so it is an attack. If somebody gets my job because they are female or black, it is an attack. If I get blamed for not making an extra inclusive effort, it is an attack. Actually I think what makes me angry is that notion that white men have handed everything to them on a plate. That is very far from reality, and dismisses a lot of human experience. Life is much more complicated than the height of your paycheck.

by Tichy 14y ago

msbarnett 14y ago

> As I said, when many of "us" started, it wasn't yet the cool thing to do either. No, I don't understand what you are trying to say? No, you clearly don't understand anything that anybody who doesn't share your experiences is trying to say about this subject. This isn't about "coolness". This is about whether or not something even seems like it's a possibility for someone. When I wanted to be in software, growing up, I didn't question whether or not it was something that "someone like me" could do, because everyone I ever saw, in magazines or books or on TV, was already like me. When I told relatives and strangers alike what I wanted to be when I grew up, they didn't discourage me or tell me that "people like me" couldn't be programmers. They didn't tell me that programming was a job for the other gender and that I was being silly for wanting to violate norms; they were supportive and encouraging, because everybody they knew of in software was like me. Women grow up today, in 2012, being steered away from software because it "isn't for girls". Black kids grow up today, in 2012, being told that software isn't for people like them. White boys are statistically bought their own computer much earlier than minorities or girls, because it's seen by people as a logical career to encourage them in, thereby perpetuating the structural disadvantages that gave rise to the white male programmer as "norm" in the first place. And every damn time someone dares broach the subject and advocate for putting a more diverse public face on the field so that it might actually stop being such a toxic monoculture, the white male majority roles its eyes and complains that they haven't experienced any of the problems that minorities are experiencing in the field, that they wouldn't have even noticed that a speaker line-up at a major conference was all just like them. Of course you wouldn't have noticed that. That's the privilege that comes with being in the majority.

danilocampos 14y ago
Thank you so very much for making this point in this way. I wasn't sure how else to explain something so seemingly obvious.
- Tichy 14y ago
  Well you seem to have made it into IT against all odds. Must have been quite the battle.
  - anu_gupta 14y ago
    People are trying to discuss this seriously, and all you have is passive aggressive sarcasm? This isn't a personal attack on you and your lifestyle and your people. It's a call to broaden the church.
    - ceol 14y ago
      The problem is many of them take it as a personal attack, as evident by the comments here, and they can't even see how that is the problem. I'm really proud of some of the comments like yours, danilocampos', and msbarnett's. It's just a shame you're being met with the same crap most of these conversations have in the programming community.
      - Tichy 14y ago
        "many of them" Oh the irony...
    - Tichy 14y ago
      Of course it is an attack. A conference was shut down. If in the future all conferences have to make an effort for diversity, it is a tax on all of us - so it is an attack. If somebody gets my job because they are female or black, it is an attack. If I get blamed for not making an extra inclusive effort, it is an attack. Actually I think what makes me angry is that notion that white men have handed everything to them on a plate. That is very far from reality, and dismisses a lot of human experience. Life is much more complicated than the height of your paycheck.