5 ms·

> This issue is inherently unfixable by ANY password manager, because the process model of the underlying OS isn't itself secure Usually the confidential bits

> This issue is inherently unfixable by ANY password manager, because the process model of the underlying OS isn't itself secure Usually the confidential bits are hardware isolated away from the supervisor (host kernel/OS) in Enclaves/TEEs, Realms, Secure Elements, Security chips, etc.

jazzyjackson 5mo ago
One more reason to use hardware-bound passkeys and not passwords.
- Someone1234 5mo ago
  True. But then your hardware dies, and you're locked out of every account you own. It is objectively good security, but has a ton of usability headaches yet to be really solved. I've seen orgs move to passkeys only, then offer reset-questions (e.g. city of first job, etc); because the Customer Service volume/workflow wasn't figured out.
  - jazzyjackson 5mo ago
    oh lawd, yes it does come down to 'who has the power to reset your account', and very few people want to take the path of 'no one has the power' in the case of lost credentials.
  - alterom 5mo ago
    >your hardware dies Or your backpack gets stolen. Oops. I swear, people who idolize passkey security must never travel anywhere. PS: "just have more devices with passkeys", they invariably say. Yeah right because people are made of money, everyone has the forethought, and a 2nd laptop in the US is a great asset when you're in Poland and can't login anywhere.
    - StilesCrisis 5mo ago
      I've been avoiding passkeys but more and more websites are trying to push them, and one website I use now requires them. I've already got a password manager! I don't need to change everything again!
      - stouset 5mo ago
        Your password manager almost certainly already has baked-in passkey support.
        StilesCrisis 5mo ago
        It does, but what's your point? Why should I redo everything?
        stouset 5mo ago
        Nobody is asking you to?
        crazygringo 5mo ago
        The subject here is literally websites trying to push passkeys on users. That is who is asking us to. About every week now Amazon tries to trick me into creating a passkey. It doesn't even ask, it just goes ahead and triggers my browser passkey creation mechanism without my consent. PayPal recently tried to force me to create one too and I had to kill and restart the app because that was the only way to skip it. I'll stick to my password with 2FA, thanks.
        Marsymars 5mo ago
        It's wildly obnoxious that browsers don't let you generally suppress these prompts. And if you take the nuclear option and strip your browser of WebAuthn support, then you obviously can't use any passkeys, which doesn't work for me - I have two sites where I do want to use passkeys (because it's the only way to avoid SMS-based MFA on every login), but I never want to see passkey prompts for any other sites.
    - slau 5mo ago
      I travel a lot. By train, plane, and car. I also use passkeys when possible. I have multiple Yubikeys, stored in different locations. I also have a password manager, where I typically keep track of which logins aren’t yet backed up across physical tokens. It takes a bit of effort, but it’s not impossible. Yes, it means that in the event of catastrophic failure I might not be able to log in to some services until I get to one of the backups. I haven’t been able to imagine a scenario where that would be truly problematic.
      - Joker_vD 5mo ago
        > It takes a bit of effort That's a wild understatement. For most users, having a password manager is already very near to the upper bound of acceptable friction.
      - alterom 5mo ago
        >Yes, it means that in the event of catastrophic failure I might not be able to log in to some services until I get to one of the backups. I haven’t been able to imagine a scenario where that would be truly problematic. No need to imagine! Remove all passkeys from your phone and laptop, then go somewhere overseas without any of those Yubikeys. Have fun enjoy a "not truly problematic" scenario of getting your Yibikeys from "multiple locations" you don't have access to, while being cut off from your messengers, email, bank account, etc. Bonus points for having your card locked or stolen at the same time. Or, imagine the backpack with your passkeys devices being stolen on an overseas trip. Again: pray tell, then what?
        slau 5mo ago
        > Remove all passkeys from your phone and laptop I don't have any passkeys on my phone or laptop. They're all on the Yubikeys. I don't really see a difference with (some) password managers, though. If you use one of the keepasses, and you lose access to the file, you're in the same situation right? And yeah, you're right, there is a risk of inconvenience. I'm not debating that. I just choose to organise my life in such a way that it is just an inconvenience.
    - Barbing 5mo ago
      >"just have more devices with passkeys" Confirms that strategy then For people who only use passwords having an extra device can help too. Google does not necessarily permit a login with a backup code, so to me it seems ideal to grab a spare phone, log into important accounts, and store it with a trusted party/friend. It could be very difficult to login to an account like Gmail from overseas in the event of PC+phone[+hardware key] theft. Maybe no big deal if you can port your number to a new phone right away. Or maybe the trusted friend can help (unless Google still finds the login suspicious after all, no idea there)
      - alterom 5mo ago
        >It could be very difficult to login to an account like Gmail from overseas in the event of PC+phone[+hardware key] theft Literally happened to me in Poland, which is why I avoid passkeys like the plague. (The thief got caught months later. That didn't help me.) >Maybe no big deal if you can port your number to a new phone right away. T-Mobile won't mail a SIM card overseas, and I doubt others will either. There is no "maybe", it's a certainty that you won't be able to. >Or maybe the trusted friend can help Yeah, my wife literally mailed me SIM card to Poland. It took over week. And a "trusted friend" would first have had to get it somehow. >Or maybe the trusted friend can help (unless Google still finds the login suspicious after all, no idea there) At least I logged into my accounts from that city before the laptop and phone were stolen, so my logins were not "suspicious". That's with a password. _____ PS: screw Citibank's mandatory phone -based "2FA".
        Barbing 5mo ago
        Oh my goodness, what are we supposed to do?! Edit: and near 0 customer support too
  - Barbing 5mo ago
    >It is objectively good security, but has a ton of usability headaches yet to be really solved. Thank you, then this is still true today? Disappointing the rollout was botched (recall cross platform and password manager difficulties). Haven’t done research since but even with some new UIs and flows promoting passkeys in the past couple months, haven’t regained my trust either.
  - themaninthedark 5mo ago
    At my work we required a complex password <15 characters lower + cap, number and symbols. Updated to Windows Hello and passkey. Now I can use a 4 digit pin to login.
    - mjmas 5mo ago
      Yes, but the pin uses the TPM which allows other things like only ever allowing a low number of guesses before requiring a reset of the pin (using a password or other mechanism)
      - themaninthedark 5mo ago
        Thanks, didn't know that!
  - kenniskrag 5mo ago
    > But then your hardware dies A lot of services have password reset email features. If the email account has passkey you're screwed. But restore by snail mail can be possible but slow (for paid services). More secure? Don't know but same category of problems already known due to sim swapping attacks in mobile sector. But for sure the Mail account is a high value target. Storing passkeys in a database may be possible but complex to do it right e.g. backup verification, avoiding to leak while backup etc.
    - kenniskrag 5mo ago
      Edit: Banking has no selfservice password reset. A lot of work for customer support due to identification. Nobody wants to do that for free and if the accounts are freenyou may get DOSed by bots which trigger passwort resets.
oasisaimlessly 5mo ago
No, that is actually very rare, not typical. Do you have any examples of password managers that do that?

jazzyjackson 5mo ago

One more reason to use hardware-bound passkeys and not passwords.

Someone1234 5mo ago
True. But then your hardware dies, and you're locked out of every account you own. It is objectively good security, but has a ton of usability headaches yet to be really solved. I've seen orgs move to passkeys only, then offer reset-questions (e.g. city of first job, etc); because the Customer Service volume/workflow wasn't figured out.
- jazzyjackson 5mo ago
  oh lawd, yes it does come down to 'who has the power to reset your account', and very few people want to take the path of 'no one has the power' in the case of lost credentials.
- alterom 5mo ago
  >your hardware dies Or your backpack gets stolen. Oops. I swear, people who idolize passkey security must never travel anywhere. PS: "just have more devices with passkeys", they invariably say. Yeah right because people are made of money, everyone has the forethought, and a 2nd laptop in the US is a great asset when you're in Poland and can't login anywhere.
  - StilesCrisis 5mo ago
    I've been avoiding passkeys but more and more websites are trying to push them, and one website I use now requires them. I've already got a password manager! I don't need to change everything again!
    - stouset 5mo ago
      Your password manager almost certainly already has baked-in passkey support.
      - StilesCrisis 5mo ago
        It does, but what's your point? Why should I redo everything?
        stouset 5mo ago
        Nobody is asking you to?
        crazygringo 5mo ago
        The subject here is literally websites trying to push passkeys on users. That is who is asking us to. About every week now Amazon tries to trick me into creating a passkey. It doesn't even ask, it just goes ahead and triggers my browser passkey creation mechanism without my consent. PayPal recently tried to force me to create one too and I had to kill and restart the app because that was the only way to skip it. I'll stick to my password with 2FA, thanks.
        Marsymars 5mo ago
        It's wildly obnoxious that browsers don't let you generally suppress these prompts. And if you take the nuclear option and strip your browser of WebAuthn support, then you obviously can't use any passkeys, which doesn't work for me - I have two sites where I do want to use passkeys (because it's the only way to avoid SMS-based MFA on every login), but I never want to see passkey prompts for any other sites.
  - slau 5mo ago
    I travel a lot. By train, plane, and car. I also use passkeys when possible. I have multiple Yubikeys, stored in different locations. I also have a password manager, where I typically keep track of which logins aren’t yet backed up across physical tokens. It takes a bit of effort, but it’s not impossible. Yes, it means that in the event of catastrophic failure I might not be able to log in to some services until I get to one of the backups. I haven’t been able to imagine a scenario where that would be truly problematic.
    - Joker_vD 5mo ago
      > It takes a bit of effort That's a wild understatement. For most users, having a password manager is already very near to the upper bound of acceptable friction.
    - alterom 5mo ago
      >Yes, it means that in the event of catastrophic failure I might not be able to log in to some services until I get to one of the backups. I haven’t been able to imagine a scenario where that would be truly problematic. No need to imagine! Remove all passkeys from your phone and laptop, then go somewhere overseas without any of those Yubikeys. Have fun enjoy a "not truly problematic" scenario of getting your Yibikeys from "multiple locations" you don't have access to, while being cut off from your messengers, email, bank account, etc. Bonus points for having your card locked or stolen at the same time. Or, imagine the backpack with your passkeys devices being stolen on an overseas trip. Again: pray tell, then what?
      - slau 5mo ago
        > Remove all passkeys from your phone and laptop I don't have any passkeys on my phone or laptop. They're all on the Yubikeys. I don't really see a difference with (some) password managers, though. If you use one of the keepasses, and you lose access to the file, you're in the same situation right? And yeah, you're right, there is a risk of inconvenience. I'm not debating that. I just choose to organise my life in such a way that it is just an inconvenience.
  - Barbing 5mo ago
    >"just have more devices with passkeys" Confirms that strategy then For people who only use passwords having an extra device can help too. Google does not necessarily permit a login with a backup code, so to me it seems ideal to grab a spare phone, log into important accounts, and store it with a trusted party/friend. It could be very difficult to login to an account like Gmail from overseas in the event of PC+phone[+hardware key] theft. Maybe no big deal if you can port your number to a new phone right away. Or maybe the trusted friend can help (unless Google still finds the login suspicious after all, no idea there)
    - alterom 5mo ago
      >It could be very difficult to login to an account like Gmail from overseas in the event of PC+phone[+hardware key] theft Literally happened to me in Poland, which is why I avoid passkeys like the plague. (The thief got caught months later. That didn't help me.) >Maybe no big deal if you can port your number to a new phone right away. T-Mobile won't mail a SIM card overseas, and I doubt others will either. There is no "maybe", it's a certainty that you won't be able to. >Or maybe the trusted friend can help Yeah, my wife literally mailed me SIM card to Poland. It took over week. And a "trusted friend" would first have had to get it somehow. >Or maybe the trusted friend can help (unless Google still finds the login suspicious after all, no idea there) At least I logged into my accounts from that city before the laptop and phone were stolen, so my logins were not "suspicious". That's with a password. _____ PS: screw Citibank's mandatory phone -based "2FA".
      - Barbing 5mo ago
        Oh my goodness, what are we supposed to do?! Edit: and near 0 customer support too
- Barbing 5mo ago
  >It is objectively good security, but has a ton of usability headaches yet to be really solved. Thank you, then this is still true today? Disappointing the rollout was botched (recall cross platform and password manager difficulties). Haven’t done research since but even with some new UIs and flows promoting passkeys in the past couple months, haven’t regained my trust either.
- themaninthedark 5mo ago
  At my work we required a complex password <15 characters lower + cap, number and symbols. Updated to Windows Hello and passkey. Now I can use a 4 digit pin to login.
  - mjmas 5mo ago
    Yes, but the pin uses the TPM which allows other things like only ever allowing a low number of guesses before requiring a reset of the pin (using a password or other mechanism)
    - themaninthedark 5mo ago
      Thanks, didn't know that!
- kenniskrag 5mo ago
  > But then your hardware dies A lot of services have password reset email features. If the email account has passkey you're screwed. But restore by snail mail can be possible but slow (for paid services). More secure? Don't know but same category of problems already known due to sim swapping attacks in mobile sector. But for sure the Mail account is a high value target. Storing passkeys in a database may be possible but complex to do it right e.g. backup verification, avoiding to leak while backup etc.
  - kenniskrag 5mo ago
    Edit: Banking has no selfservice password reset. A lot of work for customer support due to identification. Nobody wants to do that for free and if the accounts are freenyou may get DOSed by bots which trigger passwort resets.

oasisaimlessly 5mo ago

No, that is actually very rare, not typical. Do you have any examples of password managers that do that?