5 ms·

While sounding nice in theory, these sorts of regulations will certainly curtail innovation while providing very, very little value elsewhere. If people wanted

While sounding nice in theory, these sorts of regulations will certainly curtail innovation while providing very, very little value elsewhere. If people wanted removable batteries in their phones, they would buy them a lot. They don't.

mossTechnician 6mo ago
Which flagship phones with replaceable batteries can customers buy? Samsung was the last major brand in the US to have one, and they made the choice to remove it.
- matchbok3 6mo ago
  Not sure. But there are plenty of flip phones with removable batteries.
  - anonymars 6mo ago
    So you're suggesting we all just need to buy exclusively flip phones for a few years to send the market a signal that it wants replaceable batteries. Then the free market will do its thing and keep the engine of innovation running Speaking of which, does anyone want to do a list of "features added to smartphones over the last 10 years" vs "features removed from smartphones over the last 10 years" so we can see just what innovations are at risk?
    - matchbok3 6mo ago
      I'm not suggesting anything, I'm simply offering the reality of the smartphone market. What you are suggesting is a contrived, exaggerated take of how markets function. People generally like small, thin phones, as evidenced by the billions sold. It really isn't much more complicated than that.
      - deleted 6mo ago
        [deleted]
      - anonymars 6mo ago
        That's an interesting assertion given that phones have gotten progressively larger and the iPhone Mini was phased out Maybe it is more complicated than that
- lightedman 6mo ago
  "Which flagship phones with replaceable batteries can customers buy?" Most of the Kyocera Duraforce line has this ability.
  - deleted 6mo ago
    [deleted]
  - ben-schaaf 6mo ago
    Their latest and greatest PRO 3 runs a chip that was mid-range when it releases 4 years ago and only 6 GB of RAM. That is decidedly not a flagship.
    - lightedman 6mo ago
      My Kyocera will work in orbit and withstand intense radiation. In fact, this very moment my new Duraforce Pro 3 is having fun in a launch-testing thermal/vac chamber. Kyocera's 'flagship' is high-reliability phones in absolute garbage environments. Samsung's 'flagship' overheats and earns them class-action lawsuits. Motorola's 'flagship' is a hinged throwback to the 90s. Apple's 'flagship' is an overpriced piece of vendor lock-in. Meanwhile my phone takes serious abuse and laughs at it. I've dropped it and watched it go more than 700 feet down the side of a mountain (Chambless Skarn) and BARELY chip the screen protector. Waterproofing still intact. Case barely scratched. What you consider a flagship phone is a brittle piece of junk in my hands.
      - ben-schaaf 6mo ago
        How does any of that prevent the phone from having the latest chip and copious ram?
        anonymars 6mo ago
        Radiation hardening would do that
        6mo ago
spankibalt 6mo ago
> "If people wanted removable batteries in their phones, they would buy them a lot. They don't." For that to happen there obviously needs to be a supply worth writing home about. Furthermore, speaking purely for myself, a removable battery is not a must but a nice-to-have. A lot of slabs that have removable batteries are out of the game for entirely different reasons.
- matchbok3 6mo ago
  So really it's not about phones having a removable battery, but a whole host of other features plus a removable battery. Which is just untenable from a regulatory POV.
  - spankibalt 6mo ago
    Well, strictly from a regulatory standpoint, at least given the thread's topic, it's just the batteries. So or so, the loophole is already in the package as well, so as long as you meet the relevant certs the point is moot.
- echoangle 6mo ago
  > For that to happen there obviously needs to be a supply worth writing home about. Not really. If there’s no supply, it’s probably because the manufacturers did a market analysis and decided it’s not even worth it to offer that. So either their analysis is extremely wrong and it actually would sell, or the consumers don’t want to buy it that bad.
  - spankibalt 6mo ago
    > "If there’s no supply, it’s probably because the manufacturers [...] decided it’s not even worth it to offer that." You got it surrounded. Why offer devices that you have to support for a longer time (e. g. enterprise models) when there's more money to be made when you enshittify (which obviously goes beyond just batteries)?
    - 6mo ago
brettermeier 6mo ago
I absolutely would buy a Samsung Smartphone with replacable battery. The last one which had this was the S5 I think...
pydry 6mo ago
...is what people said when they brought in the mandate for usb charging but it didnt. It turns out market consolidation is usually the biggest innovation killer.
gizajob 6mo ago
Even with a battery that can be replaced using a tiny screwdriver, this still doesn’t make it DIY for probably 80-90% of smartphone users.
- gf000 6mo ago
  That's not the point. It being done in a local shop for a few bucks with no small letter text saying that "we may break your screen in half because this thing can't be repaired properly". It mentions that it should not use glue, not need solvent and only commercially available tools may be usable (or they have to be provided next to the phone).
  - catdog 6mo ago
    Also availability of original spare parts is important. Aftermarket batteries often tend to be shitty.
LeifCarrotson 6mo ago
I want removeable batteries in my phone, largely because it means I don't have to buy them a lot! I ran my LG G5 with replaceable batteries from 2016 through 2021, at which point there were no affordable replaceable-battery phones left. I bought quite a few replacement batteries, even trying aftermarket batteries with varying levels of success after the OEM LG ones were discontinued. That is, of course, a problem for manufacturers that want to sell a lot of phones.
ninalanyon 6mo ago
Innovation generally happens because of some kind of impediment to doing things the old way. So this is more likely drive innovation than curtail it.
hashmap 6mo ago
that isnt how markets really work. you could say that if apple had two otherwise identical iphones except one has removable battery and one doesn't. but the enshittification cycle works via a ratcheting effect. once you achieve a certain level of dominance and lock-in, you can start getting away with all kinds of anti-consumer strategies to make more money and not get punished for it, and your competitors will follow suit. as long as you can ratchet above whatever detrimental thing you want to get away with is you'll probably be fine. you can look at the lightning connector as an example. if you said "if people wanted usb connectivity they wouldn't buy iphones", nobody would take you seriously. and when apple was forced to switch, it absolutely didnt tank their sales because people just loved the lightning connector so much. the bad thing went away and it was great.
- matchbok3 6mo ago
  If Apple could make money from removable batteries, meaning there was a market for it and people wanted it over some other alternative, are you suggesting they are not smart enough to do the research and work necessary to accomplish that? The reality is people don't want it, at all. At least not enough to warrant action. So the story ends there. Also, the lighting connector is better than USB in every way. Mandating an inferior technology is an odd choice.
  - anonymars 6mo ago
    False dichotomy. The question isn't whether you can make money with a replaceable battery, but whether you can make more money by selling specialized service (or an entirely new phone) than a battery. What else are people going to do, not buy a phone? Switch operating systems entirely? This whole thing becomes more obvious in the Android world, where models with various features do exist, but only in certain markets Even then, this whole line of argument seems moot because if the battery still holds enough charge over time the regulations don't even require it to be replaceable
    - matchbok3 6mo ago
      People can, and do, switch OSes. Or use a flip phone.
ben-schaaf 6mo ago
> If people wanted removable batteries in their phones, they would buy them a lot. They don't. This argument gets thrown about every time companies make anti-consumer changes, and it completely ignores the information asymmetry and other dynamics at play. When I go to the store to buy a new phone, where does it list on the box how repairable the device is? Where does it show how expensive the repair will be? If I'm locked in the apple ecosystem, where do I buy an iPhone with a replaceable battery? Your assumption that the market is driven by informed consumer choices presupposes that every buyer is an expert.
- matchbok3 6mo ago
  None of that really matters, though. Most people are not repairing anything they own. It is cheaper to replace. That may be good or bad, I do not know.
  - TheCycoONE 6mo ago
    I don't have the evidence to say either way, but I do know that at least my city has a lot of cellphone repair businesses, including mall kiosks. Presumably they have enough clientele to keep them going which suggests a lot of people are repairing their phones.
- charcircuit 6mo ago
  If you go and buy an iPhone they advertise how expensive AppleCare is.
catdog 6mo ago
Nonsense. It just mandates easier repairability and spare parts availability, not ad-hoc replacement. Also this does not apply if the battery is able to retain 80% of its original capacity after 1,000 charge cycles so "innovative" manufacturers just need to use high quality batteries.

mossTechnician 6mo ago

Which flagship phones with replaceable batteries can customers buy? Samsung was the last major brand in the US to have one, and they made the choice to remove it.

matchbok3 6mo ago
Not sure. But there are plenty of flip phones with removable batteries.
- anonymars 6mo ago
  So you're suggesting we all just need to buy exclusively flip phones for a few years to send the market a signal that it wants replaceable batteries. Then the free market will do its thing and keep the engine of innovation running Speaking of which, does anyone want to do a list of "features added to smartphones over the last 10 years" vs "features removed from smartphones over the last 10 years" so we can see just what innovations are at risk?
  - matchbok3 6mo ago
    I'm not suggesting anything, I'm simply offering the reality of the smartphone market. What you are suggesting is a contrived, exaggerated take of how markets function. People generally like small, thin phones, as evidenced by the billions sold. It really isn't much more complicated than that.
    - deleted 6mo ago
      [deleted]
    - anonymars 6mo ago
      That's an interesting assertion given that phones have gotten progressively larger and the iPhone Mini was phased out Maybe it is more complicated than that
lightedman 6mo ago
"Which flagship phones with replaceable batteries can customers buy?" Most of the Kyocera Duraforce line has this ability.
- deleted 6mo ago
  [deleted]
- ben-schaaf 6mo ago
  Their latest and greatest PRO 3 runs a chip that was mid-range when it releases 4 years ago and only 6 GB of RAM. That is decidedly not a flagship.
  - lightedman 6mo ago
    My Kyocera will work in orbit and withstand intense radiation. In fact, this very moment my new Duraforce Pro 3 is having fun in a launch-testing thermal/vac chamber. Kyocera's 'flagship' is high-reliability phones in absolute garbage environments. Samsung's 'flagship' overheats and earns them class-action lawsuits. Motorola's 'flagship' is a hinged throwback to the 90s. Apple's 'flagship' is an overpriced piece of vendor lock-in. Meanwhile my phone takes serious abuse and laughs at it. I've dropped it and watched it go more than 700 feet down the side of a mountain (Chambless Skarn) and BARELY chip the screen protector. Waterproofing still intact. Case barely scratched. What you consider a flagship phone is a brittle piece of junk in my hands.
    - ben-schaaf 6mo ago
      How does any of that prevent the phone from having the latest chip and copious ram?
      - anonymars 6mo ago
        Radiation hardening would do that
        6mo ago

spankibalt 6mo ago

> "If people wanted removable batteries in their phones, they would buy them a lot. They don't." For that to happen there obviously needs to be a supply worth writing home about. Furthermore, speaking purely for myself, a removable battery is not a must but a nice-to-have. A lot of slabs that have removable batteries are out of the game for entirely different reasons.

matchbok3 6mo ago
So really it's not about phones having a removable battery, but a whole host of other features plus a removable battery. Which is just untenable from a regulatory POV.
- spankibalt 6mo ago
  Well, strictly from a regulatory standpoint, at least given the thread's topic, it's just the batteries. So or so, the loophole is already in the package as well, so as long as you meet the relevant certs the point is moot.
echoangle 6mo ago
> For that to happen there obviously needs to be a supply worth writing home about. Not really. If there’s no supply, it’s probably because the manufacturers did a market analysis and decided it’s not even worth it to offer that. So either their analysis is extremely wrong and it actually would sell, or the consumers don’t want to buy it that bad.
- spankibalt 6mo ago
  > "If there’s no supply, it’s probably because the manufacturers [...] decided it’s not even worth it to offer that." You got it surrounded. Why offer devices that you have to support for a longer time (e. g. enterprise models) when there's more money to be made when you enshittify (which obviously goes beyond just batteries)?
  - 6mo ago

brettermeier 6mo ago

I absolutely would buy a Samsung Smartphone with replacable battery. The last one which had this was the S5 I think...

pydry 6mo ago

...is what people said when they brought in the mandate for usb charging but it didnt. It turns out market consolidation is usually the biggest innovation killer.

gizajob 6mo ago

Even with a battery that can be replaced using a tiny screwdriver, this still doesn’t make it DIY for probably 80-90% of smartphone users.

gf000 6mo ago
That's not the point. It being done in a local shop for a few bucks with no small letter text saying that "we may break your screen in half because this thing can't be repaired properly". It mentions that it should not use glue, not need solvent and only commercially available tools may be usable (or they have to be provided next to the phone).
- catdog 6mo ago
  Also availability of original spare parts is important. Aftermarket batteries often tend to be shitty.

LeifCarrotson 6mo ago

I want removeable batteries in my phone, largely because it means I don't have to buy them a lot! I ran my LG G5 with replaceable batteries from 2016 through 2021, at which point there were no affordable replaceable-battery phones left. I bought quite a few replacement batteries, even trying aftermarket batteries with varying levels of success after the OEM LG ones were discontinued. That is, of course, a problem for manufacturers that want to sell a lot of phones.

ninalanyon 6mo ago

Innovation generally happens because of some kind of impediment to doing things the old way. So this is more likely drive innovation than curtail it.

hashmap 6mo ago

that isnt how markets really work. you could say that if apple had two otherwise identical iphones except one has removable battery and one doesn't. but the enshittification cycle works via a ratcheting effect. once you achieve a certain level of dominance and lock-in, you can start getting away with all kinds of anti-consumer strategies to make more money and not get punished for it, and your competitors will follow suit. as long as you can ratchet above whatever detrimental thing you want to get away with is you'll probably be fine. you can look at the lightning connector as an example. if you said "if people wanted usb connectivity they wouldn't buy iphones", nobody would take you seriously. and when apple was forced to switch, it absolutely didnt tank their sales because people just loved the lightning connector so much. the bad thing went away and it was great.

matchbok3 6mo ago
If Apple could make money from removable batteries, meaning there was a market for it and people wanted it over some other alternative, are you suggesting they are not smart enough to do the research and work necessary to accomplish that? The reality is people don't want it, at all. At least not enough to warrant action. So the story ends there. Also, the lighting connector is better than USB in every way. Mandating an inferior technology is an odd choice.
- anonymars 6mo ago
  False dichotomy. The question isn't whether you can make money with a replaceable battery, but whether you can make more money by selling specialized service (or an entirely new phone) than a battery. What else are people going to do, not buy a phone? Switch operating systems entirely? This whole thing becomes more obvious in the Android world, where models with various features do exist, but only in certain markets Even then, this whole line of argument seems moot because if the battery still holds enough charge over time the regulations don't even require it to be replaceable
  - matchbok3 6mo ago
    People can, and do, switch OSes. Or use a flip phone.

ben-schaaf 6mo ago

> If people wanted removable batteries in their phones, they would buy them a lot. They don't. This argument gets thrown about every time companies make anti-consumer changes, and it completely ignores the information asymmetry and other dynamics at play. When I go to the store to buy a new phone, where does it list on the box how repairable the device is? Where does it show how expensive the repair will be? If I'm locked in the apple ecosystem, where do I buy an iPhone with a replaceable battery? Your assumption that the market is driven by informed consumer choices presupposes that every buyer is an expert.

matchbok3 6mo ago
None of that really matters, though. Most people are not repairing anything they own. It is cheaper to replace. That may be good or bad, I do not know.
- TheCycoONE 6mo ago
  I don't have the evidence to say either way, but I do know that at least my city has a lot of cellphone repair businesses, including mall kiosks. Presumably they have enough clientele to keep them going which suggests a lot of people are repairing their phones.
charcircuit 6mo ago
If you go and buy an iPhone they advertise how expensive AppleCare is.

catdog 6mo ago

Nonsense. It just mandates easier repairability and spare parts availability, not ad-hoc replacement. Also this does not apply if the battery is able to retain 80% of its original capacity after 1,000 charge cycles so "innovative" manufacturers just need to use high quality batteries.