3 ms·

You're pre-emptive hostility seems rather unwarranted. This article is my usual go-to and lists several reasons why JavaScript might not be available, and thus

You're pre-emptive hostility seems rather unwarranted. This article is my usual go-to and lists several reasons why JavaScript might not be available, and thus why you shouldn't take it for granted: https://piccalil.li/blog/a-handful-of-reasons-javascript-wont-be-available/ https://piccalil.li/blog/a-handful-of-reasons-javascript-won...

mr_mitm 5mo ago
I feel compelled to add: - the user explicitly disabled JavaScript - the browser does not support JavaScript (I sometimes view websites using elinks) AFAIK screen readers also work better without JavaScript, so it's also an accessibility issue.
- jazzypants 5mo ago
  JavaScript doesn't effect screen readers at all unless you dynamically add content without the proper ARIA roles. It is trivial to correct. As I just said, users who explicitly disable JavaScript cannot even use Google Search. Why should I accommodate those users when even Google refuses to do so? They are actively choosing to have a limited web experience. The vast majority of the internet is completely broken for them.
jazzypants 5mo ago
[flagged]
- ivan_gammel 5mo ago
  >A spotty connection hasn’t loaded the dependencies correctly - Either they load or they don't. How would the dependencies load "incorrectly"? Let‘s say you have 5-7 dependencies to load, but 3 of them timed out because your train entered the tunnel. Your app ends up in incorrect state, fails silently and UX degrades unpredictably. This is where the conversion often drops visibly and the reason SSR is now a go-to solution for any marketing website.
  - jazzypants 5mo ago
    Why am I loading dependencies from 5-7 places? Why is my website not using a bundler if it has so many varied dependencies? Why do we not expect the user to understand that they are in a tunnel without internet? Regardless, this isn't really restricted to the usage of JavaScript. The website would likely have pretty bad UX if only half of the CSS loaded correctly, but no one programs defensively around it being absent.
    - ivan_gammel 5mo ago
      Have you ever developed an enterprise scale frontend applications optimized for conversion targets? It feels like you have not. You may ship your own code in a bundle, yes. All integrations come on top of that. That chatbot, tracker, A/B testing logic etc - all are loaded separately from your service provider CDN. An user opening a web page is not expecting a full-blown app with multi-second loading times. If that happens, they bounce, and you loose revenue. Web is supposed to have very short time to first content paint and very short time to interactive, the shorter, the better, less than 0.5s is the goal. It can deliver that, if built properly. Many SPAs, bulky JS apps are built this way for developer convenience, not for end users. The only real use case for SPA is when you deal with a lot of local data. A spreadsheet, document or image editor, a diagram tool (but then wasm is probably a better choice). You may say, you are not building enterprise grade frontend. But if you are small enough, you don’t need SPA either.
      - jazzypants 5mo ago
        > chatbot, tracker, A/B testing logic etc Literally none of those things are necessary for a working website. If your site breaks when your analytics don't load, then that's just horrible design at any scale.
        ivan_gammel 5mo ago
        Apparently you have no idea what are you talking about.
      - 5mo ago
- M95D 5mo ago
  > I'm just tired of being downvoted every single time I mention that JavaScript is necessary on the modern web Downvotes should give you a hint that the few users that know what javascript is, don't like it, and the rest of them, if they learned, most likely won't like it either. Your attitude shows that you don't care.
  - jazzypants 5mo ago
    My attitude shows that JavaScript is necessary for the modern web experience! No one has successfully argued against this yet-- nor have they even really tried! You're all just mad about my tone without even discussing the content as if this was a kindergarten class. This is absurd. Let me get this right, you're saying that people on HackerNews don't know about JavaScript-- one of the most popular programming languages in the world?
    - M95D 5mo ago
      > My attitude shows that JavaScript is necessary for the modern web experience! No one has successfully argued against this yet-- nor have they even really tried! Exactly! I agree with you 100%! I, and many others, don't like the modern web experience and JS is the foundation that makes it all possible.
      - jazzypants 5mo ago
        Yeah, and I don't like paying taxes or many other aspects of modern society, but I don't reflexively downvote anyone who mentions that you need to pay taxes to participate in modern society.
        M95D 5mo ago
        You missed the point.
- dalmo3 5mo ago
  Don't worry, it's only in the HN bubble that adding a 500ms round trip to open a damn menu is acceptable and commended.

mr_mitm 5mo ago

I feel compelled to add: - the user explicitly disabled JavaScript - the browser does not support JavaScript (I sometimes view websites using elinks) AFAIK screen readers also work better without JavaScript, so it's also an accessibility issue.

jazzypants 5mo ago
JavaScript doesn't effect screen readers at all unless you dynamically add content without the proper ARIA roles. It is trivial to correct. As I just said, users who explicitly disable JavaScript cannot even use Google Search. Why should I accommodate those users when even Google refuses to do so? They are actively choosing to have a limited web experience. The vast majority of the internet is completely broken for them.

jazzypants 5mo ago

[flagged]

ivan_gammel 5mo ago
>A spotty connection hasn’t loaded the dependencies correctly - Either they load or they don't. How would the dependencies load "incorrectly"? Let‘s say you have 5-7 dependencies to load, but 3 of them timed out because your train entered the tunnel. Your app ends up in incorrect state, fails silently and UX degrades unpredictably. This is where the conversion often drops visibly and the reason SSR is now a go-to solution for any marketing website.
- jazzypants 5mo ago
  Why am I loading dependencies from 5-7 places? Why is my website not using a bundler if it has so many varied dependencies? Why do we not expect the user to understand that they are in a tunnel without internet? Regardless, this isn't really restricted to the usage of JavaScript. The website would likely have pretty bad UX if only half of the CSS loaded correctly, but no one programs defensively around it being absent.
  - ivan_gammel 5mo ago
    Have you ever developed an enterprise scale frontend applications optimized for conversion targets? It feels like you have not. You may ship your own code in a bundle, yes. All integrations come on top of that. That chatbot, tracker, A/B testing logic etc - all are loaded separately from your service provider CDN. An user opening a web page is not expecting a full-blown app with multi-second loading times. If that happens, they bounce, and you loose revenue. Web is supposed to have very short time to first content paint and very short time to interactive, the shorter, the better, less than 0.5s is the goal. It can deliver that, if built properly. Many SPAs, bulky JS apps are built this way for developer convenience, not for end users. The only real use case for SPA is when you deal with a lot of local data. A spreadsheet, document or image editor, a diagram tool (but then wasm is probably a better choice). You may say, you are not building enterprise grade frontend. But if you are small enough, you don’t need SPA either.
    - jazzypants 5mo ago
      > chatbot, tracker, A/B testing logic etc Literally none of those things are necessary for a working website. If your site breaks when your analytics don't load, then that's just horrible design at any scale.
      - ivan_gammel 5mo ago
        Apparently you have no idea what are you talking about.
    - 5mo ago
M95D 5mo ago
> I'm just tired of being downvoted every single time I mention that JavaScript is necessary on the modern web Downvotes should give you a hint that the few users that know what javascript is, don't like it, and the rest of them, if they learned, most likely won't like it either. Your attitude shows that you don't care.
- jazzypants 5mo ago
  My attitude shows that JavaScript is necessary for the modern web experience! No one has successfully argued against this yet-- nor have they even really tried! You're all just mad about my tone without even discussing the content as if this was a kindergarten class. This is absurd. Let me get this right, you're saying that people on HackerNews don't know about JavaScript-- one of the most popular programming languages in the world?
  - M95D 5mo ago
    > My attitude shows that JavaScript is necessary for the modern web experience! No one has successfully argued against this yet-- nor have they even really tried! Exactly! I agree with you 100%! I, and many others, don't like the modern web experience and JS is the foundation that makes it all possible.
    - jazzypants 5mo ago
      Yeah, and I don't like paying taxes or many other aspects of modern society, but I don't reflexively downvote anyone who mentions that you need to pay taxes to participate in modern society.
      - M95D 5mo ago
        You missed the point.
dalmo3 5mo ago
Don't worry, it's only in the HN bubble that adding a 500ms round trip to open a damn menu is acceptable and commended.