3 ms·

If a junior builds something with agents that turns into a mess they can’t debug, that will teach them something. If they care about getting better, they will l

If a junior builds something with agents that turns into a mess they can’t debug, that will teach them something. If they care about getting better, they will learn to understand why that happened and how to avoid it next time. It’s not all that different than writing code directly and having it turn into a mess they can’t debug—something we all did when we were learning to program. It is in many ways far easier to write robust, modular, and secure software with agents than by hand, because it’s now so easy to refactor and write extensive tests. There is nothing magical about coding by hand that makes it the only way to learn the principles of software design. You can learn through working with agents too.

wiieee 5mo ago
“Currently an engineer at OpenAI” Don’t forget to mention that.
FridgeSeal 5mo ago
> that will teach them something. If they care about getting better, This pre-supposes the idea that the business is _willing_ to let that happen, which is increasingly unlikely. The current, widespread attitude amongst stakeholders is “who cares, get the model to fix it and move on”. At least, when we wrote code by hand, needing to fix things by hand was a forcing function: one that now, from the business perspective, no longer exists.
- danenania 5mo ago
  If it’s broken and the dev can’t debug it, the business won’t have much of a choice.
  - intrinsicallee 5mo ago
    There is a lot of space between broken and high quality that won't necessitate any business letting people "learn" on the job.
    - danenania 5mo ago
      That’s also true without AI. Engineers want more time to polish and businesses want to ship the 80/20 solution that’s good enough to sell. There's always going to be a tension there regardless of tools.
      - anon-3988 5mo ago
        Don't you see the problem? Now engineers literally do not have any leverage. Did the model make it work? Yes? Then ship it, what are we waiting around for?
        danenania 5mo ago
        That sounds pretty much the same as it’s always been? It used to be: “Does the happy path work? Then ship it! There’s no time to make it robust or clean up tech debt.” Now there actually is time to make things robust if you learn how to do it.
        anon-3988 5mo ago
        > Now there actually is time to make things robust if you learn how to do it. What makes you think you are going to be given time to polish it? You would be pushed to another project. You have more responsibilities with none of the growth.
        danenania 5mo ago
        It takes very little time to polish now.
        FridgeSeal 5mo ago
        Again, provided you either had the skills. Or you’re getting the model to do the polishing, thereby developing no skills of your own, and we’re back to the start.
- deweywsu 5mo ago
  This is what I have been thinking. Business will always try to do more with less because their only true goal is figuring out how to make more money. They will sacrifice giving those juniors time to learn from their mistakes for the sake of making more widgets (code). From the wider generational view, they will rob today's juniors from the chance to learn and thereby keep the talent pipeline full so they can profit today, the future (and the developers who will arrive there) be damned. The economic game is flawed because it only ever comes down to a single output that is optimized for: money. One solution? I think software people might consider forming unions. I know that's antithetical to the lone coder ethos, but if what this comment reflects is true, the industry needs a check and balance to prevent it from destroying its foundation from the inside.
  - whattheheckheck 5mo ago
    Why would a business train anyone when they can lean on the govt to provide unbankruptable loans to the student to go to university to learn themselves
blks 5mo ago
Coding by hand is not mere typing symbols into editor that LLMs are now replacing, it’s thinking, abstracting, deciding how to apply your knowledge and experience, searching for information. And of course in the current workplace where there’s often a push from managers to use LLMs as much as possible and to put as much work as possible on yourself, in this churn junior will not get to learn anything besides prompting and simple tooling.
- danenania 5mo ago
  > thinking, abstracting, deciding how to apply your knowledge and experience, searching for information None of this requires coding by hand. I can do those things better and faster with agents helping me. That incudes unfamiliar areas where I am effectively a junior.
  - blks 5mo ago
    Do you describe what to write to llm, line by line, in excruciating details? Sounds like a painful way to develop.
    - danenania 5mo ago
      Line by line is no longer what I need to think about. I think about types/schemas, architectural division, contracts between services and components, how to test thoroughly, scaling properties, security properties, and these kinds of things.

wiieee 5mo ago

“Currently an engineer at OpenAI” Don’t forget to mention that.

FridgeSeal 5mo ago

> that will teach them something. If they care about getting better, This pre-supposes the idea that the business is _willing_ to let that happen, which is increasingly unlikely. The current, widespread attitude amongst stakeholders is “who cares, get the model to fix it and move on”. At least, when we wrote code by hand, needing to fix things by hand was a forcing function: one that now, from the business perspective, no longer exists.

danenania 5mo ago
If it’s broken and the dev can’t debug it, the business won’t have much of a choice.
- intrinsicallee 5mo ago
  There is a lot of space between broken and high quality that won't necessitate any business letting people "learn" on the job.
  - danenania 5mo ago
    That’s also true without AI. Engineers want more time to polish and businesses want to ship the 80/20 solution that’s good enough to sell. There's always going to be a tension there regardless of tools.
    - anon-3988 5mo ago
      Don't you see the problem? Now engineers literally do not have any leverage. Did the model make it work? Yes? Then ship it, what are we waiting around for?
      - danenania 5mo ago
        That sounds pretty much the same as it’s always been? It used to be: “Does the happy path work? Then ship it! There’s no time to make it robust or clean up tech debt.” Now there actually is time to make things robust if you learn how to do it.
        anon-3988 5mo ago
        > Now there actually is time to make things robust if you learn how to do it. What makes you think you are going to be given time to polish it? You would be pushed to another project. You have more responsibilities with none of the growth.
        danenania 5mo ago
        It takes very little time to polish now.
        FridgeSeal 5mo ago
        Again, provided you either had the skills. Or you’re getting the model to do the polishing, thereby developing no skills of your own, and we’re back to the start.
deweywsu 5mo ago
This is what I have been thinking. Business will always try to do more with less because their only true goal is figuring out how to make more money. They will sacrifice giving those juniors time to learn from their mistakes for the sake of making more widgets (code). From the wider generational view, they will rob today's juniors from the chance to learn and thereby keep the talent pipeline full so they can profit today, the future (and the developers who will arrive there) be damned. The economic game is flawed because it only ever comes down to a single output that is optimized for: money. One solution? I think software people might consider forming unions. I know that's antithetical to the lone coder ethos, but if what this comment reflects is true, the industry needs a check and balance to prevent it from destroying its foundation from the inside.
- whattheheckheck 5mo ago
  Why would a business train anyone when they can lean on the govt to provide unbankruptable loans to the student to go to university to learn themselves

blks 5mo ago

Coding by hand is not mere typing symbols into editor that LLMs are now replacing, it’s thinking, abstracting, deciding how to apply your knowledge and experience, searching for information. And of course in the current workplace where there’s often a push from managers to use LLMs as much as possible and to put as much work as possible on yourself, in this churn junior will not get to learn anything besides prompting and simple tooling.

danenania 5mo ago
> thinking, abstracting, deciding how to apply your knowledge and experience, searching for information None of this requires coding by hand. I can do those things better and faster with agents helping me. That incudes unfamiliar areas where I am effectively a junior.
- blks 5mo ago
  Do you describe what to write to llm, line by line, in excruciating details? Sounds like a painful way to develop.
  - danenania 5mo ago
    Line by line is no longer what I need to think about. I think about types/schemas, architectural division, contracts between services and components, how to test thoroughly, scaling properties, security properties, and these kinds of things.