4 ms·

> There's no luck involved in the fact that you were born to your parents, as they were to theirs. Are you claiming to have controlled where and to whom you we

> There's no luck involved in the fact that you were born to your parents, as they were to theirs. Are you claiming to have controlled where and to whom you were born? You did not choose your parents, country, ancestry, class, era, genes, language, or inherited institutions. You may be inseparable from those facts, but you did not earn them. > There's no luck involved in the fact that you were born to your parents > we were so fortunate to inherit from them. These two statements appear to be contradictory. > It is right to be proud of the achievements of your ancestors And what was your contribution to those achievements to justify this pride? You have to be careful to not fall into the trap of borrowed glory: treating an ancestor’s achievement as your own personal merit, or using ancestry to rank yourself above others. > toiled and strived to deliver the place that we were so fortunate to inherit > our responsibility to defend and improve that place for the coming generations of our people. Are you implying that the place belongs more fully to descendants of earlier inhabitants than to newer members of the community? So then Native Americans have a stronger claim than European descendants? Or is that a standard to only be applied moving forward? That's also like the caste system in India: only children of brahmins can be brahmins, children of shudras can only be shudras. One is superior to another by inheritance, not merit. That's ugly and abhorrent. > It is right to be proud of the achievements of your ancestors Are you then also ashamed of their crimes?

gopperl 6mo ago
[flagged]
- ninjagoo 6mo ago
  >> Are you claiming to have controlled where and to whom you were born? > My parents did. Their parents did. My children will. But not you >> you did not earn them > My parents did. Their parents did. My children will. But not you > Everything I have today has been hard-earned by my ancestors. But not by you > Everything my children have will be hard-earned by my ancestors and I. *We* earned them. LoL
- kelnos 6mo ago
  > I can feel 'fortunate' that my parents got me the bike I really wanted for Christmas, but there's no randomness in my parents working overtime and budgeting responsibly that made it possible. Correct. But there is randomness, or luck, or whatever you want to call it, that you were born to parents who worked overtime and budgeted responsibly so that you could have nice things. You could just have easily been born to parents who were lazy and irresponsible, and couldn't give you nice things. > I am a part of the same collective, the long and continued story of my people. Sure, but you did not contribute to the achievements of your ancestors. You will (and/or have) presumably achieve things on your own, built on top of your ancestors' achievements, and pass that legacy to your children. But that's something different. Be (non-arrogantly) proud of your own achievements, because you had a hand in them. > You have to be careful not to fall into the trap of nihilistic individualism. You are part of something much bigger than yourself. I don't think anyone is disagreeing with that. But being a part of something doesn't mean that you've personally done something. I didn't do the things my ancestors did to get me to where I am today. I'm grateful, as I would probably not be happy doing many of the things they had to do. And I hope any children I may have will be grateful to me for the same reasons (but that also would depend on me actually being a good parent to them; I don't just get it for free). Re: that penultimate paragraph... oof, I'm struggling with what to say here. While yes, the vast majority of the modern USA was built by the colonizers and not the natives who came before, we need to temper our enthusiasm for our achievements with an acknowledgement of the barbaric actions of our ancestors who came to the New World and deceived, sickened, and slaughtered those who already lived there. > Isn't it funny how we are supposed to recoil in shame and horror with the constant reminders of the worst parts of our people's history, yet we are condemned for also proudly owning our best? I don't think that condemnation is as strong as you think it is, and your aversion to it is worrying. As I said, our best is tempered with acknowledgement of our worst. Be proud, if you must, of what you, personally, have accomplished. Look on the accomplishments of others (both contemporary and long-dead) with awe and respect, as appropriate. Acknowledge that many of those accomplishments involved slave labor, murder, and other atrocities. Vow to work toward your own future accomplishments in only moral and ethical ways. You correctly state that we are part of something much bigger than ourselves. Some of that "something" is good, and some of that "something" is bad. And everything in between. We have to live with all parts, and learn from both the good and the bad.
- armenarmen 6mo ago
  You are encouraged to feel bad and apologize for things that you never did but people who look like you did in the past, or you’re a bad person. You are forbidden from being proud of things you never did but that people who looked like you did in the past, or you’re a bad person. Doubly so on both if you’re of European ancestry. Get with the program.
aubanel 6mo ago
> And what was your contribution to those achievements to justify this pride? Of course personal contribution is a factor of pride, and arguably the most justified one. But it's far from the only one. - fan clubs - a child marvelling on how strong/cool their parents are - US citizens on 4th of July (I'm not American btw) All of these contributed ~nothing in the phenomenon; their pride comes from the wonders worked by the group they belong to. One does not need to _earn_ pride. Think it the other way : if you don't think legitimate for the receivers of wonders to feel pride, think of it from the side of the providers of wonders. Parents who toiled for their children, great statespeople who worked hard to improve their country: they intentionally directed their efforts towards someone (descendants, citizens). I think pride is sort of gratitude of receivers for the fruits of a common group's efforts. And it's completely justified IMO to feel un-earned pride.

gopperl 6mo ago

[flagged]

ninjagoo 6mo ago
>> Are you claiming to have controlled where and to whom you were born? > My parents did. Their parents did. My children will. But not you >> you did not earn them > My parents did. Their parents did. My children will. But not you > Everything I have today has been hard-earned by my ancestors. But not by you > Everything my children have will be hard-earned by my ancestors and I. *We* earned them. LoL
kelnos 6mo ago
> I can feel 'fortunate' that my parents got me the bike I really wanted for Christmas, but there's no randomness in my parents working overtime and budgeting responsibly that made it possible. Correct. But there is randomness, or luck, or whatever you want to call it, that you were born to parents who worked overtime and budgeted responsibly so that you could have nice things. You could just have easily been born to parents who were lazy and irresponsible, and couldn't give you nice things. > I am a part of the same collective, the long and continued story of my people. Sure, but you did not contribute to the achievements of your ancestors. You will (and/or have) presumably achieve things on your own, built on top of your ancestors' achievements, and pass that legacy to your children. But that's something different. Be (non-arrogantly) proud of your own achievements, because you had a hand in them. > You have to be careful not to fall into the trap of nihilistic individualism. You are part of something much bigger than yourself. I don't think anyone is disagreeing with that. But being a part of something doesn't mean that you've personally done something. I didn't do the things my ancestors did to get me to where I am today. I'm grateful, as I would probably not be happy doing many of the things they had to do. And I hope any children I may have will be grateful to me for the same reasons (but that also would depend on me actually being a good parent to them; I don't just get it for free). Re: that penultimate paragraph... oof, I'm struggling with what to say here. While yes, the vast majority of the modern USA was built by the colonizers and not the natives who came before, we need to temper our enthusiasm for our achievements with an acknowledgement of the barbaric actions of our ancestors who came to the New World and deceived, sickened, and slaughtered those who already lived there. > Isn't it funny how we are supposed to recoil in shame and horror with the constant reminders of the worst parts of our people's history, yet we are condemned for also proudly owning our best? I don't think that condemnation is as strong as you think it is, and your aversion to it is worrying. As I said, our best is tempered with acknowledgement of our worst. Be proud, if you must, of what you, personally, have accomplished. Look on the accomplishments of others (both contemporary and long-dead) with awe and respect, as appropriate. Acknowledge that many of those accomplishments involved slave labor, murder, and other atrocities. Vow to work toward your own future accomplishments in only moral and ethical ways. You correctly state that we are part of something much bigger than ourselves. Some of that "something" is good, and some of that "something" is bad. And everything in between. We have to live with all parts, and learn from both the good and the bad.
armenarmen 6mo ago
You are encouraged to feel bad and apologize for things that you never did but people who look like you did in the past, or you’re a bad person. You are forbidden from being proud of things you never did but that people who looked like you did in the past, or you’re a bad person. Doubly so on both if you’re of European ancestry. Get with the program.

aubanel 6mo ago

> And what was your contribution to those achievements to justify this pride? Of course personal contribution is a factor of pride, and arguably the most justified one. But it's far from the only one. - fan clubs - a child marvelling on how strong/cool their parents are - US citizens on 4th of July (I'm not American btw) All of these contributed ~nothing in the phenomenon; their pride comes from the wonders worked by the group they belong to. One does not need to _earn_ pride. Think it the other way : if you don't think legitimate for the receivers of wonders to feel pride, think of it from the side of the providers of wonders. Parents who toiled for their children, great statespeople who worked hard to improve their country: they intentionally directed their efforts towards someone (descendants, citizens). I think pride is sort of gratitude of receivers for the fruits of a common group's efforts. And it's completely justified IMO to feel un-earned pride.