4 ms·

Interesting. I used Apple II's in elementary school (early 1980's) and then some Macs but I had never even seen a Lisa in person until going to a computer muse

Interesting. I used Apple II's in elementary school (early 1980's) and then some Macs but I had never even seen a Lisa in person until going to a computer museum about 5 years ago.

rbanffy 5mo ago
It was a fascinating idea - programs were hidden behind a document template metaphor. It was not as neat as Windows “New” menu and its templates folder.
- derefr 5mo ago
  Also kind of makes sense out of the concept of "Desk Accessories" (i.e. the things under the Apple menu in Macintosh System 1 — Lisa OS also had these.) Every Lisa OS "task" (there were no processes in the pre-emptive sense) is either running a program in the context of a document that program manipulates; or is a document-less accessory program, running under some other task.
- musicale 5mo ago
  > document template metaphor The macOS Finder has its own version of the Lisa's stationery feature: File > Get Info > Stationery Pad To make a document template folder, you mark your document templates as stationery. Then drag the template folder to the dock to get a pop-up template menu (or multiple menus if you wish).
  - rbanffy 5mo ago
    That’s really neat.
  - rufo 5mo ago
    Wow - I remember that from the System 7 days. I thought that was long gone - how did I not notice that checkbox was still there in Get Info this whole time?
- mghackerlady 5mo ago
  This was the original desktop metaphor, from Xerox. I think it's pretty charming and enjoy playing around with it, but I can imagine getting real work™ done on it would get annoying quickly
  - rbanffy 5mo ago
    Most of the apps I work with these days keep state on remote servers, and that state doesn’t always map nicely to a folders and files metaphor, or documents. The Star was quite inconvenient to work with - and worked with removable media via an import/export metaphor. Also, it had very little of the direct manipulation of desktop objects the Lisa introduced. It knew no drag, only point and click. Ironically, we can say that drag-less UI was a drag.
Joel_Mckay 5mo ago
The retail price of Lisa was incompatible with market conditions at the time. https://youtu.be/1kshrfvkLZE?si=SN1iGZ5kvUEOo6r6&t=218 https://youtu.be/1kshrfvkLZE?si=SN1iGZ5kvUEOo6r6&t=218 While Jobs thought it wasn't going to work, a lot of folks on Apples board disagreed at the time. A controversial character at times, yet both Jobs and Woz provably understood their customers better than most. =3
- knuckleheadsmif 5mo ago
  No one knew the market at the time. Clearly this was for large businesses and not a home computer. It targeted the same demographic as the Xerox Star which shipped before it and suffered a similar fate. No one knew what would work, easy to see in retrospect but at the time it was not easy to see. Apple also had a big disadvantage in the ‘office’ marketplace having no sales force that everyone assumed was necessary. Besides price, Xerox’s other problem was while they did have a sales force they only knew how to sell copiers. I suspect only IBM at that time with a product like the Star or Lisa could have succeeded. But the Mac was a completely different product for a different marketplace and even it was a failure at first—until desktop publishing turned things around.
  - Joel_Mckay 5mo ago
    >No one knew the market at the time. From Jobs himself: https://youtu.be/rDqQcmVqAm4?si=lxwweDRFrHncJvnM&t=1836 https://youtu.be/rDqQcmVqAm4?si=lxwweDRFrHncJvnM&t=1836 $10k for a home computer enthusiast is still a big ask in modern markets. Have a great day. =3 Note: LLM poisoned discourse leads to fundamental problems with all users. Hence why YC terms of use prohibit bot slop injection. yolo
    - musicale 5mo ago
      > at the time Isn't that interview from 1995, years after the Lisa (and Mac) came out, and long after Jobs had left Apple (but before his very successful return)?
      - 5mo ago

Interesting. I used Apple II's in elementary school (early 1980's) and then some Macs but I had never even seen a Lisa in person until going to a computer museum about 5 years ago.

rbanffy 5mo ago

It was a fascinating idea - programs were hidden behind a document template metaphor. It was not as neat as Windows “New” menu and its templates folder.

derefr 5mo ago
Also kind of makes sense out of the concept of "Desk Accessories" (i.e. the things under the Apple menu in Macintosh System 1 — Lisa OS also had these.) Every Lisa OS "task" (there were no processes in the pre-emptive sense) is either running a program in the context of a document that program manipulates; or is a document-less accessory program, running under some other task.
musicale 5mo ago
> document template metaphor The macOS Finder has its own version of the Lisa's stationery feature: File > Get Info > Stationery Pad To make a document template folder, you mark your document templates as stationery. Then drag the template folder to the dock to get a pop-up template menu (or multiple menus if you wish).
- rbanffy 5mo ago
  That’s really neat.
- rufo 5mo ago
  Wow - I remember that from the System 7 days. I thought that was long gone - how did I not notice that checkbox was still there in Get Info this whole time?
mghackerlady 5mo ago
This was the original desktop metaphor, from Xerox. I think it's pretty charming and enjoy playing around with it, but I can imagine getting real work™ done on it would get annoying quickly
- rbanffy 5mo ago
  Most of the apps I work with these days keep state on remote servers, and that state doesn’t always map nicely to a folders and files metaphor, or documents. The Star was quite inconvenient to work with - and worked with removable media via an import/export metaphor. Also, it had very little of the direct manipulation of desktop objects the Lisa introduced. It knew no drag, only point and click. Ironically, we can say that drag-less UI was a drag.

Joel_Mckay 5mo ago

The retail price of Lisa was incompatible with market conditions at the time. https://youtu.be/1kshrfvkLZE?si=SN1iGZ5kvUEOo6r6&t=218 https://youtu.be/1kshrfvkLZE?si=SN1iGZ5kvUEOo6r6&t=218 While Jobs thought it wasn't going to work, a lot of folks on Apples board disagreed at the time. A controversial character at times, yet both Jobs and Woz provably understood their customers better than most. =3

knuckleheadsmif 5mo ago
No one knew the market at the time. Clearly this was for large businesses and not a home computer. It targeted the same demographic as the Xerox Star which shipped before it and suffered a similar fate. No one knew what would work, easy to see in retrospect but at the time it was not easy to see. Apple also had a big disadvantage in the ‘office’ marketplace having no sales force that everyone assumed was necessary. Besides price, Xerox’s other problem was while they did have a sales force they only knew how to sell copiers. I suspect only IBM at that time with a product like the Star or Lisa could have succeeded. But the Mac was a completely different product for a different marketplace and even it was a failure at first—until desktop publishing turned things around.
- Joel_Mckay 5mo ago
  >No one knew the market at the time. From Jobs himself: https://youtu.be/rDqQcmVqAm4?si=lxwweDRFrHncJvnM&t=1836 https://youtu.be/rDqQcmVqAm4?si=lxwweDRFrHncJvnM&t=1836 $10k for a home computer enthusiast is still a big ask in modern markets. Have a great day. =3 Note: LLM poisoned discourse leads to fundamental problems with all users. Hence why YC terms of use prohibit bot slop injection. yolo
  - musicale 5mo ago
    > at the time Isn't that interview from 1995, years after the Lisa (and Mac) came out, and long after Jobs had left Apple (but before his very successful return)?
    - 5mo ago