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Thanks for this perspective. Do we really miss typing ascii characters into an editor? That seems to me the least consequential and least interesting part of bu

Thanks for this perspective. Do we really miss typing ascii characters into an editor? That seems to me the least consequential and least interesting part of building software systems. Always has been. Dare I say those stuck on nostalgia for pressing keys are demonstrating that they cared more about their own personal experience than about the outcome of their work? Now that coding is automated, we have to elevate our ambitions. Ironically, Phish's music emerges from egoless expression (to paraphrase keyboardist Page McConnell). Giving up your own personal stake in the process is literally what brings something as beautiful as Phish's music into existence. We need to do the same with our software; give up the notion that "our" code is meaningful.

bluefirebrand 5mo ago
> Do we really miss typing ascii characters into an editor? Yes. > Dare I say those stuck on nostalgia for pressing keys are demonstrating that they cared more about their own personal experience than about the outcome of their work I care about the outcome, which is why I don't trust it to a fucking LLM Valuing quality over velocity is not selfish
- perrygeo 5mo ago
  > Valuing quality over velocity is not selfish Fully agree. I never mentioned velocity or advocated for lower quality. In fact, this statement very well sums up my point: we should care about the thing we're producing, not our personal experience of coding it.
  - norir 5mo ago
    The product and the process are not orthogonal.
  - isityettime 5mo ago
    We should always care about our own subjectivity. If anything, subjectivity is too easy to discount in this day and age.
  - bluefirebrand 5mo ago
    If you're arguing for using LLMs, you are effectively arguing in favor of sacrificing quality for speed as far as I'm concerned In my experience anyone saying they're still producing high quality work while using LLMs is full of shit when the work is actually reviewed properly
cmiles74 5mo ago
I think concentrating on the physical act of typing on the keyboard is maybe taking it a little too far. The author of the OP talks more about holding a lot of the problem in their head and entering a "flow" state where they figure out a solution. Most of my interaction with AI models and agents is still mediated by a keyboard and still requires a lot of "typing ascii characters". ;-)
- perrygeo 5mo ago
  The "typing ascii characters" angle is a bit hyperbolic, I admit. But my intention is to get people to think about their software, not their personal experience of it. BTW, there's nothing preventing you from using AI agents and staying in the flow state. If you want that, the universe is not stopping you. In fact, not dealing with the minutia of source code may well free us up and allow even greater flow experiences.
  - skydhash 5mo ago
    > In fact, not dealing with the minutia of source code may well free us up and allow even greater flow experiences. You say minutia, but others say well organized notation and predictive systems. At least for me, writing code is as easy as writing English and with less effort.
  - ytoawwhra92 5mo ago
    When I retire almost none of the software I produced during my career will still be in use, but I'll have memories of 40 years of work to live with until I pass away.
yason 5mo ago
Dare I say those stuck on nostalgia for pressing keys are demonstrating that they cared more about their own personal experience than about the outcome of their work? Now that coding is automated, we have to elevate our ambitions. YES. The beauty of programming is and always was that, first, you enjoyed it and, second, for some oddball reason you could actually get paid to do it. And one can't produce anything good unless you actually love working on it which means you want to put yourself working on it. The outcome might accidentally serve the one who pays for it but ultimately what did get the work finished was the sensation when you were reaching the point where you would finally tie things together and see everything you designed come to life and work together. AI doesn't give you that personal involvement. We can do it but it's a different line of work and we care very little about what goes in and what comes out. We just do the grunt work of connecting the two ends. We're not for a fuck interested in elevating ambitions which is a word that relates to what is outside while all the good stuff comes from the inside.
giveaccountpls 5mo ago
> Giving up your own personal stake in the process is literally what brings something as beautiful as Phish's music into existence Unless Page McConnell is creating his music with AI these days, I don't think this point holds.

bluefirebrand 5mo ago

> Do we really miss typing ascii characters into an editor? Yes. > Dare I say those stuck on nostalgia for pressing keys are demonstrating that they cared more about their own personal experience than about the outcome of their work I care about the outcome, which is why I don't trust it to a fucking LLM Valuing quality over velocity is not selfish

perrygeo 5mo ago
> Valuing quality over velocity is not selfish Fully agree. I never mentioned velocity or advocated for lower quality. In fact, this statement very well sums up my point: we should care about the thing we're producing, not our personal experience of coding it.
- norir 5mo ago
  The product and the process are not orthogonal.
- isityettime 5mo ago
  We should always care about our own subjectivity. If anything, subjectivity is too easy to discount in this day and age.
- bluefirebrand 5mo ago
  If you're arguing for using LLMs, you are effectively arguing in favor of sacrificing quality for speed as far as I'm concerned In my experience anyone saying they're still producing high quality work while using LLMs is full of shit when the work is actually reviewed properly

cmiles74 5mo ago

I think concentrating on the physical act of typing on the keyboard is maybe taking it a little too far. The author of the OP talks more about holding a lot of the problem in their head and entering a "flow" state where they figure out a solution. Most of my interaction with AI models and agents is still mediated by a keyboard and still requires a lot of "typing ascii characters". ;-)

perrygeo 5mo ago
The "typing ascii characters" angle is a bit hyperbolic, I admit. But my intention is to get people to think about their software, not their personal experience of it. BTW, there's nothing preventing you from using AI agents and staying in the flow state. If you want that, the universe is not stopping you. In fact, not dealing with the minutia of source code may well free us up and allow even greater flow experiences.
- skydhash 5mo ago
  > In fact, not dealing with the minutia of source code may well free us up and allow even greater flow experiences. You say minutia, but others say well organized notation and predictive systems. At least for me, writing code is as easy as writing English and with less effort.
- ytoawwhra92 5mo ago
  When I retire almost none of the software I produced during my career will still be in use, but I'll have memories of 40 years of work to live with until I pass away.

yason 5mo ago

Dare I say those stuck on nostalgia for pressing keys are demonstrating that they cared more about their own personal experience than about the outcome of their work? Now that coding is automated, we have to elevate our ambitions. YES. The beauty of programming is and always was that, first, you enjoyed it and, second, for some oddball reason you could actually get paid to do it. And one can't produce anything good unless you actually love working on it which means you want to put yourself working on it. The outcome might accidentally serve the one who pays for it but ultimately what did get the work finished was the sensation when you were reaching the point where you would finally tie things together and see everything you designed come to life and work together. AI doesn't give you that personal involvement. We can do it but it's a different line of work and we care very little about what goes in and what comes out. We just do the grunt work of connecting the two ends. We're not for a fuck interested in elevating ambitions which is a word that relates to what is outside while all the good stuff comes from the inside.

giveaccountpls 5mo ago

> Giving up your own personal stake in the process is literally what brings something as beautiful as Phish's music into existence Unless Page McConnell is creating his music with AI these days, I don't think this point holds.