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> And to the haters: Show me any company or product from Germany in IT that is Top 100 globally. Also I wouldn’t want to disagree with you outright, there are

> And to the haters: Show me any company or product from Germany in IT that is Top 100 globally. Also I wouldn’t want to disagree with you outright, there are still a few important German companies in the IT sector (or related): Siemens, Infineon, Deutsche Telekom, Bechtle, TeamViewer come to my mind. What Siemens exemplifies is that the strength of German industry is not pure software, but high-tech machinery. While Siemens and most of its spin-offs are doing somewhat okay, the stocks of its spin-off Siemens Energy have risen by ~700 % in the last 3 years.

joe_mamba 5mo ago
>a few important German companies in the IT sector (or related): Siemens, Infineon, Deutsche Telekom, Bechtle, TeamViewer come to my mind. None of them famous or being praised by customers for having amazing UI/UX though, because they're not consumer products, they're targeting engineers who either don't care about UX, or don't have a choice in the matter because their company is buying it, not them. Cars on the other hand ARE consumer products and do need great UX, and German companies long forgot how to do that since they operate everything as a cost center and outsource everything they perceive ads no value. >the strength of German industry is not pure software, but high-tech machinery Yeah but there's more margins in pure software and more buyers in the world for consumer devices than for high tech machinery. Apple can probably buy all of Germany's machine tool makers if they wanted to. It's the perk of selling to 7 billion consumers in the world. > the stocks of its spin-off Siemens Energy have risen by ~700 % in the last 3 years. Just like every energy and defense stock in the world right now, but that's to be expected and somewhat offtopic for SW and UX. If we look at some of their other consumer and healthcare spin-offs like Gigaset or Healthineers, they are doing insanely poor, which is embarrassing.
- sandworm101 5mo ago
  They havent totally forgotten. I drove a 2025 BMW last week and noticed many similarities to my favorite car, the '92 325IS. The speedo and tach both aligned in top gear, the thumb hooks were still perfect, and the cluster still dimmed enough for night driving. Someone at BMW remembers how to do UI.
- torginus 5mo ago
  >and outsource everything they perceive ads no value. In their defense, if they know they have no inhouse competence and their existing org structure is not good for building software, then doesn't it make sense to contract people who do and can? Also, if Germans admittedly are not great at building good UX, and/or software, there are countries/companies who definitely don't suffer from that shortcoming. And I'm not sure why German cars suck == Europe is doomed, what about the infotainment on Renaults?
  - joe_mamba 5mo ago
    > then doesn't it make sense to contract people who do and can? Except they don't. They contract it out to the cheapest bidder because they optimize for cost over innovation.
    - torginus 5mo ago
      Do you have sources on this? I interviewed for a company that built software for high-end German cars, and their compensation wasn't bad.
lb1lf 5mo ago
Where Siemens really shines, is in their fanatical devotion to after sales. I rely on Siemens automation products at work. They give me end-of-life warnings a couple of years ahead - and maintain a spares inventory for a decade and change after EoL. That basically ensures I am never caught out, and makes me more than happy to (grudgingly) accept all their ideosyncracies...
- bonestamp2 5mo ago
  I assume it makes you a loyal customer when upgrading/replacing equipment too... knowing what to expect and that you're going to have all of that support. So many product companies fail to think about that -- they're all thinking about this quarter and very few take a long term approach and really try to have customers for life. They all say that want that of course, but too few are really committed to it. There are a few brands that I buy that are committed to quality, and they usually cost more (initially, but probably not in the long run). I'm fine paying more know that they really tried to do their best and didn't let nickels and dimes get in the way of an otherwise great concept.
  - lb1lf 5mo ago
    Of course; I will jump through just about any hoop in order to keep buying their products precisely as I know that will buy both me and the end customer long term peace of mind.
- gmueckl 5mo ago
  Industrial automation as a market is like that. Those products are expected to be long lived and supported for decades because the machinery they are attached to often has a similarly long lifespan. A company I worked at was still supporting 20 to 30 products and in some cases building new hardware from 30 year old designs (including the exact same electronics).
- deleted 5mo ago
  [deleted]
ofrzeta 5mo ago
Technically SAP is a Société Européenne but still somehow the biggest German software developer.
- croemer 5mo ago
  What matters is where the headquarters and key employees are. SE can be based anywhere in EU and even then legal entity stuff isn't what matters. Origin: German, HQ: German, Accounting regime: German, Main stock listing: German, Executive board: 5/6 German
  - nkmnz 5mo ago
    In fact, you can run any form of European legal entity from any country. I.e., I can create an spółka z ograniczoną odpowiedzialnością (sp. z o.o.) in Poland, but run the business in Germany. It would be complicated and stupid, but legal.
    - badpun 5mo ago
      You can't hire people cross-border though. That sp. z o.o. would need a German subsidiary if it wanted to employ people in Germany.
      - nkmnz 5mo ago
        You can! A foreign EU company just needs to get a "Betriebsnummer" (company number) from "Bundesagentur für Arbeit", which doesn't even require a Betriebsstätte (permanent business establishment, a branch that is not legally independent) or a "Zweigniederlassung" (branch office, legally semi-independent, but still part of the same entity) - and certainly not a subsidiary that has it's own legal persona.
- wongarsu 5mo ago
  And fittingly SAP is successful despite horrible UX
  - 5mo ago

joe_mamba 5mo ago

>a few important German companies in the IT sector (or related): Siemens, Infineon, Deutsche Telekom, Bechtle, TeamViewer come to my mind. None of them famous or being praised by customers for having amazing UI/UX though, because they're not consumer products, they're targeting engineers who either don't care about UX, or don't have a choice in the matter because their company is buying it, not them. Cars on the other hand ARE consumer products and do need great UX, and German companies long forgot how to do that since they operate everything as a cost center and outsource everything they perceive ads no value. >the strength of German industry is not pure software, but high-tech machinery Yeah but there's more margins in pure software and more buyers in the world for consumer devices than for high tech machinery. Apple can probably buy all of Germany's machine tool makers if they wanted to. It's the perk of selling to 7 billion consumers in the world. > the stocks of its spin-off Siemens Energy have risen by ~700 % in the last 3 years. Just like every energy and defense stock in the world right now, but that's to be expected and somewhat offtopic for SW and UX. If we look at some of their other consumer and healthcare spin-offs like Gigaset or Healthineers, they are doing insanely poor, which is embarrassing.

sandworm101 5mo ago
They havent totally forgotten. I drove a 2025 BMW last week and noticed many similarities to my favorite car, the '92 325IS. The speedo and tach both aligned in top gear, the thumb hooks were still perfect, and the cluster still dimmed enough for night driving. Someone at BMW remembers how to do UI.
torginus 5mo ago
>and outsource everything they perceive ads no value. In their defense, if they know they have no inhouse competence and their existing org structure is not good for building software, then doesn't it make sense to contract people who do and can? Also, if Germans admittedly are not great at building good UX, and/or software, there are countries/companies who definitely don't suffer from that shortcoming. And I'm not sure why German cars suck == Europe is doomed, what about the infotainment on Renaults?
- joe_mamba 5mo ago
  > then doesn't it make sense to contract people who do and can? Except they don't. They contract it out to the cheapest bidder because they optimize for cost over innovation.
  - torginus 5mo ago
    Do you have sources on this? I interviewed for a company that built software for high-end German cars, and their compensation wasn't bad.

lb1lf 5mo ago

Where Siemens really shines, is in their fanatical devotion to after sales. I rely on Siemens automation products at work. They give me end-of-life warnings a couple of years ahead - and maintain a spares inventory for a decade and change after EoL. That basically ensures I am never caught out, and makes me more than happy to (grudgingly) accept all their ideosyncracies...

bonestamp2 5mo ago
I assume it makes you a loyal customer when upgrading/replacing equipment too... knowing what to expect and that you're going to have all of that support. So many product companies fail to think about that -- they're all thinking about this quarter and very few take a long term approach and really try to have customers for life. They all say that want that of course, but too few are really committed to it. There are a few brands that I buy that are committed to quality, and they usually cost more (initially, but probably not in the long run). I'm fine paying more know that they really tried to do their best and didn't let nickels and dimes get in the way of an otherwise great concept.
- lb1lf 5mo ago
  Of course; I will jump through just about any hoop in order to keep buying their products precisely as I know that will buy both me and the end customer long term peace of mind.
gmueckl 5mo ago
Industrial automation as a market is like that. Those products are expected to be long lived and supported for decades because the machinery they are attached to often has a similarly long lifespan. A company I worked at was still supporting 20 to 30 products and in some cases building new hardware from 30 year old designs (including the exact same electronics).
deleted 5mo ago
[deleted]

ofrzeta 5mo ago

Technically SAP is a Société Européenne but still somehow the biggest German software developer.

croemer 5mo ago
What matters is where the headquarters and key employees are. SE can be based anywhere in EU and even then legal entity stuff isn't what matters. Origin: German, HQ: German, Accounting regime: German, Main stock listing: German, Executive board: 5/6 German
- nkmnz 5mo ago
  In fact, you can run any form of European legal entity from any country. I.e., I can create an spółka z ograniczoną odpowiedzialnością (sp. z o.o.) in Poland, but run the business in Germany. It would be complicated and stupid, but legal.
  - badpun 5mo ago
    You can't hire people cross-border though. That sp. z o.o. would need a German subsidiary if it wanted to employ people in Germany.
    - nkmnz 5mo ago
      You can! A foreign EU company just needs to get a "Betriebsnummer" (company number) from "Bundesagentur für Arbeit", which doesn't even require a Betriebsstätte (permanent business establishment, a branch that is not legally independent) or a "Zweigniederlassung" (branch office, legally semi-independent, but still part of the same entity) - and certainly not a subsidiary that has it's own legal persona.
wongarsu 5mo ago
And fittingly SAP is successful despite horrible UX
- 5mo ago