6 ms·

> We don't even know what the pre-requisites for consciousness are so we have no way of knowing. Imo we don't even have a definition of the word that we agree

by boxed 5mo ago

> We don't even know what the pre-requisites for consciousness are so we have no way of knowing. Imo we don't even have a definition of the word that we agree on.

pydry 5mo ago
We're pretty clear on the distinction between a conscious and an unconscious human. We might not clearly understand the diff between the two states but we can certainly point to it and go "it's that".
- freedomben 5mo ago
  I'm not sure it's that clear. What about a person who is on drugs to the point they clearly don't know what reality is happening around them, but they are able to speak and move and such? I'm not sure I'd call that conscious, but by most definitions it is.
  - collyw 5mo ago
    Indeed, doing a first aid course we were pointed out that sleeping is different from being unconscious. You can wake someone from sleep pretty quickly. You can't bring an unconscious person back in the same way.
  - Jtarii 5mo ago
    You would just say that they have an altered experience of consciousness from the norm.
- agnosticmantis 5mo ago
  Now discuss whether a bonobo, a dog, a cat, a mouse, an ant, a bacterium is conscious. And you’ll find it’s not as clear cut.
  - amanaplanacanal 5mo ago
    I'm pretty sure the mammals are conscious the same way I am, in that they experience qualia the same way I do. Insects and bacteria, I suspect not, but how could I tell? There is no way to prove that other humans experience consciousness, really.
- Jtarii 5mo ago
  >We're pretty clear on the distinction between a conscious and an unconscious human. You are using unconscious as a synonym for asleep, which is not the same thing as having no conscious experience due to dreams. We are clear on the distinction between a dead human and an alive human however.
  - pydry 5mo ago
    Unconsciousness is not the same thing as sleeping. Im not sure where sleeping lies but it's probably somewhere between the consciousness and unconsciousness depending on which phase of sleep you are in and perhaps whether you are lucid dreaming. Which is to say, this is still a mystery but it still isnt a definitional problem it's a regular old scientific mystery.
- boxed 5mo ago
  Those terms are not really how we use the word "conscious" in any other situation though. With a definition like that you would say a rock is unconscious (I guess reasonable), a pretty cold bacteria is unconscious (hmm.. ok I guess?), and a warm bacteria is conscious (now I'm not on board anymore). We have to be WAY more specific in what the word even means!
  - pydry 5mo ago
    I dont see a problem here. A warm bacterium is no more conscious than I am when I've been knocked out. Bacteria are alive but they arent conscious ever.
    - boxed 5mo ago
      With your definition they clearly are. They move around, they respond to their environment and take decisive actions when needed. If a human does that they are absolutely "conscious" if you only mean it as the sense of conscious/unconscious. If you define that bacteria are never conscious, you should be able to come up with a definition that doesn't accidentally make them conscious in your definition of the word without just arbitrarily adding "oh, but not bacteria" at some point. I'll state it again: DEFINE THE WORD. People just argue and scream at each other and no one defined their terms. It's absolute madness to us who see that this is what happens. It's like arguing over the color of the sky and using the word "fnord" and no side has defined the frequency of light that "fnord" should correspond to. BOTH sides are wrong in that situation, because they both don't define the word.
      - pydry 5mo ago
        >With your definition they clearly are. No absolutely not. My definition was exclusively defining in terms of a human phenomena. >I'll state it again: DEFINE THE WORD Instead of repeating yourself reread again what I initially wrote. I think you missed more than it being scoped exclusively to humans.
        boxed 5mo ago
qsera 5mo ago
Ability to feel pain or pleasure is a good indicator I think..
- echoangle 5mo ago
  And how do you define pain and pleasure? Do insects feel pain?
  - retsibsi 5mo ago
    > And how do you define pain and pleasure? They're not reducible, but I don't know if that means we don't have definitions; we can describe them well enough that most people (who aren't p-zombies or playing the sceptical philosopher role) know pretty well what we mean. All of our definitions have to bottom out somewhere... > Do insects feel pain? Nobody (except the insects) can know for sure. Our inability to know whether X is true doesn't imply X is meaningless, though.
    - echoangle 5mo ago
      But how can X be a good indicator for something I want to determine if I can’t measure X either?
      - retsibsi 5mo ago
        > But how can X be a good indicator for something I want to determine if I can’t measure X either? In the comment that started this subthread, qsera was responding to someone who said "Imo we don't even have a definition of [consciousness]". If qsera meant that we can measure consciousness in terms of pleasure and pain, then of course I agree that they were just pushing the problem back a step. But I don't think that's what they meant.
  - qsera 5mo ago
    > Do insects feel pain? Yes, I think so. Because they show behavior that is consistent with being in a state of pain. Despite what consciousness really is, I think evolution found a way to tap into that, by causing pain, or by registering pain on the consciousness by some unknown mechanism, for behaviors that are not beneficial to the organism that hosts the respective consciousness... So I think if an organism that evolved here can display painful behavior, then it should really feel pain.
mrandish 5mo ago
> we don't even have a definition of the word that we agree on. Indeed, for any in-depth discussion of LLMs and consciousness to be productive, clearly defining terms and scope is essential. The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy is an excellent resource: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/consciousness/ https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/consciousness/

by boxed 5mo ago

> We don't even know what the pre-requisites for consciousness are so we have no way of knowing. Imo we don't even have a definition of the word that we agree on.

pydry 5mo ago

We're pretty clear on the distinction between a conscious and an unconscious human. We might not clearly understand the diff between the two states but we can certainly point to it and go "it's that".

freedomben 5mo ago
I'm not sure it's that clear. What about a person who is on drugs to the point they clearly don't know what reality is happening around them, but they are able to speak and move and such? I'm not sure I'd call that conscious, but by most definitions it is.
- collyw 5mo ago
  Indeed, doing a first aid course we were pointed out that sleeping is different from being unconscious. You can wake someone from sleep pretty quickly. You can't bring an unconscious person back in the same way.
- Jtarii 5mo ago
  You would just say that they have an altered experience of consciousness from the norm.
agnosticmantis 5mo ago
Now discuss whether a bonobo, a dog, a cat, a mouse, an ant, a bacterium is conscious. And you’ll find it’s not as clear cut.
- amanaplanacanal 5mo ago
  I'm pretty sure the mammals are conscious the same way I am, in that they experience qualia the same way I do. Insects and bacteria, I suspect not, but how could I tell? There is no way to prove that other humans experience consciousness, really.
Jtarii 5mo ago
>We're pretty clear on the distinction between a conscious and an unconscious human. You are using unconscious as a synonym for asleep, which is not the same thing as having no conscious experience due to dreams. We are clear on the distinction between a dead human and an alive human however.
- pydry 5mo ago
  Unconsciousness is not the same thing as sleeping. Im not sure where sleeping lies but it's probably somewhere between the consciousness and unconsciousness depending on which phase of sleep you are in and perhaps whether you are lucid dreaming. Which is to say, this is still a mystery but it still isnt a definitional problem it's a regular old scientific mystery.
boxed 5mo ago
Those terms are not really how we use the word "conscious" in any other situation though. With a definition like that you would say a rock is unconscious (I guess reasonable), a pretty cold bacteria is unconscious (hmm.. ok I guess?), and a warm bacteria is conscious (now I'm not on board anymore). We have to be WAY more specific in what the word even means!
- pydry 5mo ago
  I dont see a problem here. A warm bacterium is no more conscious than I am when I've been knocked out. Bacteria are alive but they arent conscious ever.
  - boxed 5mo ago
    With your definition they clearly are. They move around, they respond to their environment and take decisive actions when needed. If a human does that they are absolutely "conscious" if you only mean it as the sense of conscious/unconscious. If you define that bacteria are never conscious, you should be able to come up with a definition that doesn't accidentally make them conscious in your definition of the word without just arbitrarily adding "oh, but not bacteria" at some point. I'll state it again: DEFINE THE WORD. People just argue and scream at each other and no one defined their terms. It's absolute madness to us who see that this is what happens. It's like arguing over the color of the sky and using the word "fnord" and no side has defined the frequency of light that "fnord" should correspond to. BOTH sides are wrong in that situation, because they both don't define the word.
    - pydry 5mo ago
      >With your definition they clearly are. No absolutely not. My definition was exclusively defining in terms of a human phenomena. >I'll state it again: DEFINE THE WORD Instead of repeating yourself reread again what I initially wrote. I think you missed more than it being scoped exclusively to humans.
      - boxed 5mo ago

qsera 5mo ago

Ability to feel pain or pleasure is a good indicator I think..

echoangle 5mo ago
And how do you define pain and pleasure? Do insects feel pain?
- retsibsi 5mo ago
  > And how do you define pain and pleasure? They're not reducible, but I don't know if that means we don't have definitions; we can describe them well enough that most people (who aren't p-zombies or playing the sceptical philosopher role) know pretty well what we mean. All of our definitions have to bottom out somewhere... > Do insects feel pain? Nobody (except the insects) can know for sure. Our inability to know whether X is true doesn't imply X is meaningless, though.
  - echoangle 5mo ago
    But how can X be a good indicator for something I want to determine if I can’t measure X either?
    - retsibsi 5mo ago
      > But how can X be a good indicator for something I want to determine if I can’t measure X either? In the comment that started this subthread, qsera was responding to someone who said "Imo we don't even have a definition of [consciousness]". If qsera meant that we can measure consciousness in terms of pleasure and pain, then of course I agree that they were just pushing the problem back a step. But I don't think that's what they meant.
- qsera 5mo ago
  > Do insects feel pain? Yes, I think so. Because they show behavior that is consistent with being in a state of pain. Despite what consciousness really is, I think evolution found a way to tap into that, by causing pain, or by registering pain on the consciousness by some unknown mechanism, for behaviors that are not beneficial to the organism that hosts the respective consciousness... So I think if an organism that evolved here can display painful behavior, then it should really feel pain.

mrandish 5mo ago

> we don't even have a definition of the word that we agree on. Indeed, for any in-depth discussion of LLMs and consciousness to be productive, clearly defining terms and scope is essential. The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy is an excellent resource: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/consciousness/ https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/consciousness/