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I'm from Belgium, and even with public transportation, there are a large group of people dependent on their driver's license. But if you ask someone if they'd

I'm from Belgium, and even with public transportation, there are a large group of people dependent on their driver's license. But if you ask someone if they'd drive without insurance, or without driver's license they look at you like you've asked them to do the impossible. Whereas in the US no-one bats an eye when that happens. Half the time the cops just issue a ticket, and don't even tow the car. And now people who obey the law need to take out extra insurance for under/uninsured motorists.

JumpCrisscross 5mo ago
> if you ask someone if they'd drive without insurance, or without driver's license they look at you like you've asked them to do the impossible To wit: Europe's 1.8% (and Belgium's 0.7%) uninsured-driver rates are a fraction of America's 15% [1][2]. [1] https://www.mibi.ie/ireland-may-have-highest-level-of-uninsured-in-eu/ https://www.mibi.ie/ireland-may-have-highest-level-of-uninsu... [2] https://www.iii.org/fact-statistic/facts-statistics-uninsured-motorists https://www.iii.org/fact-statistic/facts-statistics-uninsure...
- deleted 5mo ago
  [deleted]
- retired 5mo ago
  In countries like The Netherlands it is impossible to drive around uninsured. So that is probably why the number is so low.
  - JumpCrisscross 5mo ago
    > it is impossible to drive around uninsured How?
    - retired 5mo ago
      Because fines are automatic. If you register a vehicle to your name and don't insure it within 28 days you get a €500 fine. The government can fine you up to three times a year for a total of €1500. And that is if you actually pay the fines. If you do not pay the fines and let the fees stack up, you are looking at around €4500 per year. And if you are caught driving uninsured that is a €700 fine on top of all that. With many police cars now having ANPR systems it just isn't possible to drive around uninsured without receiving fines that cost way more than just getting insurance.
      - JumpCrisscross 5mo ago
        > If you register a vehicle to your name and don't insure it within 28 days you get a €500 fine Oh, this is actually a really good idea. Wild we don't link those systems.
        retired 5mo ago
        I still see dozens of unplated mopeds in The Netherlands so the system is not perfect but they are trying to fix it.
      - jacquesm 5mo ago
        And quite possibly your vehicle will get impounded and sold at auction.
aziaziazi 5mo ago
> there are a large group of people dependent on their driver's license Are there "no licence cars" in Belgium and the US ? Basically a moped motor and a seat inside a box. 45kmh and no highway, but a bit more confortable and fast than a ebike for rural environment.
- Avicebron 5mo ago
  Not really, the cross section of people who lose their license/insurance and those that could use something like an ebike reliably for their commute is practically zilch. The US is really big and a lot of people have rural 30+ minute commutes where it snows ~6 months out of the year.
  - aziaziazi 5mo ago
    Oh I was’t clear: I’m not talking about an ebike but a very small and underpowered car like this one https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-35210572 https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-35210572 There’re somewhat popular here for those that doesn’t have a licence and offer some of the advantage but are less dangerous to others.
  - andrepd 5mo ago
    > The US is really big and a lot of people have rural 30+ minute commutes The size of the country in which a commute is contained is immaterial to the length of that commute. What you mean is not "the US is big" but "things are really far apart in the US". Which they are, but precisely because of car-centric (car-only, actually) design.
    - retired 5mo ago
      Things being far apart in the US predates cars. Rail made that possible.
      - jeromegv 5mo ago
        Rails encouraged density around the train stations. Rail is not responsible for the car sprawling type of communities which are mostly a 20th century phenomenon.
vector_spaces 5mo ago
You are right that this happens frequently in the United States compared to Europe, but you are overstating the degree to which this culturally and legally acceptable. People who are doing this are not typically broadcasting it to others, and I can assure you that when they do, for the most part people will tend to "bat an eye" at the very least. Note that motor vehicle insurance in most of Europe is more tightly regulated and generally more affordable than in the United States. Also, I suspect the car-dependent individuals in urban areas with robust public transportation in Belgium are generally vastly higher income than the typical uninsured compulsory driver in the United States. Happy to be corrected though
- JumpCrisscross 5mo ago
  > you are overstating the degree to which this culturally and legally acceptable In Florida it's a $150 fine [1]. If you do it again within 3 years, they charge you $250. If you do it again within that three-year period, they'll just charge you $500 each time. It's not even a crime [2]. [1] https://www.valuepenguin.com/auto-insurance/florida/penalties-driving-without-insurance https://www.valuepenguin.com/auto-insurance/florida/penaltie... [2] https://www.kevinkuliklaw.com/is-it-a-crime-to-drive-without-auto-insurance-in-florida/ https://www.kevinkuliklaw.com/is-it-a-crime-to-drive-without...
  - vector_spaces 5mo ago
    What point are you trying to make? If you can be fined for a behavior, and lose privileges like the ability to operate a motor vehicle, then it is not legally acceptable.
JuniperMesos 5mo ago
> But if you ask someone if they'd drive without insurance, or without driver's license they look at you like you've asked them to do the impossible. > Whereas in the US no-one bats an eye when that happens. Half the time the cops just issue a ticket, and don't even tow the car. A lot of the people driving without insurance or licenses in the US are illegal immigrants, which means enforcement of driving illegally is caught up in the same cultural-war fight over immigration law enforcement that has dominated American news since Trump got re-elected. "And now people who obey the law need to take out extra insurance for under/uninsured motorists" is specifically an anti-illegal-immigrant talking point.
- jeromegv 5mo ago
  It’s almost like there’s consequences to making it as hard as possible for people to be legalized.
  - JuniperMesos 5mo ago
    It's equally a consequence of not immediately arresting and deporting illegal immigrants the moment the government learns about their presence on US soil.
    - alamortsubite 5mo ago
      The easy way to accomplish that would be to go after the businesses that employ them. At this point, however, I think it's safe to assume it's not the real objective, and the economy would crash into a ditch if policy was anything but theater.

JumpCrisscross 5mo ago

> if you ask someone if they'd drive without insurance, or without driver's license they look at you like you've asked them to do the impossible To wit: Europe's 1.8% (and Belgium's 0.7%) uninsured-driver rates are a fraction of America's 15% [1][2]. [1] https://www.mibi.ie/ireland-may-have-highest-level-of-uninsured-in-eu/ https://www.mibi.ie/ireland-may-have-highest-level-of-uninsu... [2] https://www.iii.org/fact-statistic/facts-statistics-uninsured-motorists https://www.iii.org/fact-statistic/facts-statistics-uninsure...

deleted 5mo ago
[deleted]
retired 5mo ago
In countries like The Netherlands it is impossible to drive around uninsured. So that is probably why the number is so low.
- JumpCrisscross 5mo ago
  > it is impossible to drive around uninsured How?
  - retired 5mo ago
    Because fines are automatic. If you register a vehicle to your name and don't insure it within 28 days you get a €500 fine. The government can fine you up to three times a year for a total of €1500. And that is if you actually pay the fines. If you do not pay the fines and let the fees stack up, you are looking at around €4500 per year. And if you are caught driving uninsured that is a €700 fine on top of all that. With many police cars now having ANPR systems it just isn't possible to drive around uninsured without receiving fines that cost way more than just getting insurance.
    - JumpCrisscross 5mo ago
      > If you register a vehicle to your name and don't insure it within 28 days you get a €500 fine Oh, this is actually a really good idea. Wild we don't link those systems.
      - retired 5mo ago
        I still see dozens of unplated mopeds in The Netherlands so the system is not perfect but they are trying to fix it.
    - jacquesm 5mo ago
      And quite possibly your vehicle will get impounded and sold at auction.

aziaziazi 5mo ago

> there are a large group of people dependent on their driver's license Are there "no licence cars" in Belgium and the US ? Basically a moped motor and a seat inside a box. 45kmh and no highway, but a bit more confortable and fast than a ebike for rural environment.

Avicebron 5mo ago
Not really, the cross section of people who lose their license/insurance and those that could use something like an ebike reliably for their commute is practically zilch. The US is really big and a lot of people have rural 30+ minute commutes where it snows ~6 months out of the year.
- aziaziazi 5mo ago
  Oh I was’t clear: I’m not talking about an ebike but a very small and underpowered car like this one https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-35210572 https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-35210572 There’re somewhat popular here for those that doesn’t have a licence and offer some of the advantage but are less dangerous to others.
- andrepd 5mo ago
  > The US is really big and a lot of people have rural 30+ minute commutes The size of the country in which a commute is contained is immaterial to the length of that commute. What you mean is not "the US is big" but "things are really far apart in the US". Which they are, but precisely because of car-centric (car-only, actually) design.
  - retired 5mo ago
    Things being far apart in the US predates cars. Rail made that possible.
    - jeromegv 5mo ago
      Rails encouraged density around the train stations. Rail is not responsible for the car sprawling type of communities which are mostly a 20th century phenomenon.

vector_spaces 5mo ago

You are right that this happens frequently in the United States compared to Europe, but you are overstating the degree to which this culturally and legally acceptable. People who are doing this are not typically broadcasting it to others, and I can assure you that when they do, for the most part people will tend to "bat an eye" at the very least. Note that motor vehicle insurance in most of Europe is more tightly regulated and generally more affordable than in the United States. Also, I suspect the car-dependent individuals in urban areas with robust public transportation in Belgium are generally vastly higher income than the typical uninsured compulsory driver in the United States. Happy to be corrected though

JumpCrisscross 5mo ago
> you are overstating the degree to which this culturally and legally acceptable In Florida it's a $150 fine [1]. If you do it again within 3 years, they charge you $250. If you do it again within that three-year period, they'll just charge you $500 each time. It's not even a crime [2]. [1] https://www.valuepenguin.com/auto-insurance/florida/penalties-driving-without-insurance https://www.valuepenguin.com/auto-insurance/florida/penaltie... [2] https://www.kevinkuliklaw.com/is-it-a-crime-to-drive-without-auto-insurance-in-florida/ https://www.kevinkuliklaw.com/is-it-a-crime-to-drive-without...
- vector_spaces 5mo ago
  What point are you trying to make? If you can be fined for a behavior, and lose privileges like the ability to operate a motor vehicle, then it is not legally acceptable.

JuniperMesos 5mo ago

> But if you ask someone if they'd drive without insurance, or without driver's license they look at you like you've asked them to do the impossible. > Whereas in the US no-one bats an eye when that happens. Half the time the cops just issue a ticket, and don't even tow the car. A lot of the people driving without insurance or licenses in the US are illegal immigrants, which means enforcement of driving illegally is caught up in the same cultural-war fight over immigration law enforcement that has dominated American news since Trump got re-elected. "And now people who obey the law need to take out extra insurance for under/uninsured motorists" is specifically an anti-illegal-immigrant talking point.

jeromegv 5mo ago
It’s almost like there’s consequences to making it as hard as possible for people to be legalized.
- JuniperMesos 5mo ago
  It's equally a consequence of not immediately arresting and deporting illegal immigrants the moment the government learns about their presence on US soil.
  - alamortsubite 5mo ago
    The easy way to accomplish that would be to go after the businesses that employ them. At this point, however, I think it's safe to assume it's not the real objective, and the economy would crash into a ditch if policy was anything but theater.