3 ms·

Isn't this whole approach to coffee similar to audiophily? I'm asking this as an avid coffee drinker (fancy grains, with a fancy machine) and an appreciator of

by Xmd5a 5mo ago

Isn't this whole approach to coffee similar to audiophily? I'm asking this as an avid coffee drinker (fancy grains, with a fancy machine) and an appreciator of headphones as well : when should one stop the quest for perfection? For headphones, anything beyond 400-500$ is not reasonable, since past this limit you start chasing gains that are barely perceptible or are a question of taste and you'll be able to find equivalent headphones that cost less. Where do you draw the limit personally ?

ricardobayes 5mo ago
I think it's very comparable: the current dialogue in "coffee" circles revolve around the usage of "steamed water" that supposedly improves the taste. I remember similar discussions around cables in audio circles.
- benj111 5mo ago
  Well steamed water was a rabbit hole. Although surely you would need to make the steam from steamed steam for optimal results?
  - TeMPOraL 5mo ago
    > Although surely you would need to make the steam from steamed steam for optimal results? Well, it's a complex question. I'd suggest to start from plotting your favorite coffee hardware brands and barista youtubers/tiktokers over the phase diagram of water, and continue from there. Once you get comfortable with thinking about coffee in Scientific Terms, one avenue to explore is to try and embed the aforementioned phase/opinion water diagram plane into the larger Great Material Continuum hyperspace. To do that, you add a third axis: price (for hardware obviously by MSRP/catalog price; for vloggers, plot specific tips or steps by price of ingredients they use). Having done that, you should have all the tools needed to make informed decisions in this space - just compare the paths water takes through this enriched 3D phase diagram as it turns into steam and then your beverage using any given method and combination of equipment :).
- zimpenfish 5mo ago
  > "steamed water" that supposedly improves the taste If that's about americano, James Hoffmann[0] covered why this might be the case - normally you use the steam wand to provide the water for the americano but that water has been sitting in a tank being heated and cooled and gradually evaporating down to concentrate all the bad stuff. If you use the wand to steam fresh water, you don't get all the crud. Seems simple and logical enough. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0HdzJz_evNw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0HdzJz_evNw (skip to about 5:00 for the explanation)
  - kelipso 5mo ago
    That’s one aspect but he tried kettle heated water too and steaming the water produced better results according to the video. So most likely the air in the steamed water is what produces the better taste and texture. And about the audiophile analogy upthread…some people don’t have good taste buds and other people have very sensitive tastebuds. One should have a bit of humility and not be the equivalent of a color blind person declaring that red and green are actually the same color and you must be imagining the difference.
    - zimpenfish 5mo ago
      > So most likely the air in the steamed water is what produces the better taste and texture. Definitely possible given his reaction to the degassed americano later.
fabian2k 5mo ago
I have a 200 EUR handgrinder and an Aeropress. That's about the limit for me, there isn't really anything else to improve there for filter coffee. There's probably a lot more ways to make different coffee, but not that much room for making the same coffee better. I also don't want to mess with the water, so that puts a ceiling on coffee quality anyway. There's some legitimate room to spend much more money when making Espresso. But a lot of the more expensive options would be more about the workflow than quality. If you need to make many Espressos in quick succession you'll hit the limits of cheaper equipment.
- cyberpunk 5mo ago
  I much prefer v60 to what i can produce with my aeropress, and one benefit is no plastic. Worth a try if you get the itch.
  - danielbln 5mo ago
    I have the glass and metal Aeropress, so if you fancy the Aeropress but don't fancy boiled plastic, that's an option.
Tade0 5mo ago
My cousin bought a used professional coffee machine that looked like a piece of industrial equipment - tread plate and all. Most of the time he would ask you if you want your coffee too sour or too bitter, but this one time he managed to get all the parameters so right, that he brewed something which tasted like thick, coffee soup. Outright teleported me to 1960s São Paulo to which I've, BTW, never been. I've been chasing this taste ever since, but my cousin still hasn't been able to repeat the feat.
danielbln 5mo ago
I came around from fancy everything to just reasonably good beans and an Aeropress. And in the office I'll just saunter to the press-a-button-get-coffee machine, I eventually got tired of the faffing around.

by Xmd5a 5mo ago

ricardobayes 5mo ago

I think it's very comparable: the current dialogue in "coffee" circles revolve around the usage of "steamed water" that supposedly improves the taste. I remember similar discussions around cables in audio circles.

benj111 5mo ago
Well steamed water was a rabbit hole. Although surely you would need to make the steam from steamed steam for optimal results?
- TeMPOraL 5mo ago
  > Although surely you would need to make the steam from steamed steam for optimal results? Well, it's a complex question. I'd suggest to start from plotting your favorite coffee hardware brands and barista youtubers/tiktokers over the phase diagram of water, and continue from there. Once you get comfortable with thinking about coffee in Scientific Terms, one avenue to explore is to try and embed the aforementioned phase/opinion water diagram plane into the larger Great Material Continuum hyperspace. To do that, you add a third axis: price (for hardware obviously by MSRP/catalog price; for vloggers, plot specific tips or steps by price of ingredients they use). Having done that, you should have all the tools needed to make informed decisions in this space - just compare the paths water takes through this enriched 3D phase diagram as it turns into steam and then your beverage using any given method and combination of equipment :).
zimpenfish 5mo ago
> "steamed water" that supposedly improves the taste If that's about americano, James Hoffmann[0] covered why this might be the case - normally you use the steam wand to provide the water for the americano but that water has been sitting in a tank being heated and cooled and gradually evaporating down to concentrate all the bad stuff. If you use the wand to steam fresh water, you don't get all the crud. Seems simple and logical enough. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0HdzJz_evNw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0HdzJz_evNw (skip to about 5:00 for the explanation)
- kelipso 5mo ago
  That’s one aspect but he tried kettle heated water too and steaming the water produced better results according to the video. So most likely the air in the steamed water is what produces the better taste and texture. And about the audiophile analogy upthread…some people don’t have good taste buds and other people have very sensitive tastebuds. One should have a bit of humility and not be the equivalent of a color blind person declaring that red and green are actually the same color and you must be imagining the difference.
  - zimpenfish 5mo ago
    > So most likely the air in the steamed water is what produces the better taste and texture. Definitely possible given his reaction to the degassed americano later.

fabian2k 5mo ago

I have a 200 EUR handgrinder and an Aeropress. That's about the limit for me, there isn't really anything else to improve there for filter coffee. There's probably a lot more ways to make different coffee, but not that much room for making the same coffee better. I also don't want to mess with the water, so that puts a ceiling on coffee quality anyway. There's some legitimate room to spend much more money when making Espresso. But a lot of the more expensive options would be more about the workflow than quality. If you need to make many Espressos in quick succession you'll hit the limits of cheaper equipment.

cyberpunk 5mo ago
I much prefer v60 to what i can produce with my aeropress, and one benefit is no plastic. Worth a try if you get the itch.
- danielbln 5mo ago
  I have the glass and metal Aeropress, so if you fancy the Aeropress but don't fancy boiled plastic, that's an option.

Tade0 5mo ago

My cousin bought a used professional coffee machine that looked like a piece of industrial equipment - tread plate and all. Most of the time he would ask you if you want your coffee too sour or too bitter, but this one time he managed to get all the parameters so right, that he brewed something which tasted like thick, coffee soup. Outright teleported me to 1960s São Paulo to which I've, BTW, never been. I've been chasing this taste ever since, but my cousin still hasn't been able to repeat the feat.

danielbln 5mo ago

I came around from fancy everything to just reasonably good beans and an Aeropress. And in the office I'll just saunter to the press-a-button-get-coffee machine, I eventually got tired of the faffing around.