4 ms·

>Here we show that cyclic voltammetry can be used without any additional sample preparation to directly measure the strength of a coffee beverage and, separatel

by fsckboy 5mo ago

>Here we show that cyclic voltammetry can be used without any additional sample preparation to directly measure the strength of a coffee beverage and, separately, how dark the coffee has been roasted; these two properties are implicated in the sensory profile of the beverage. those two properties do not even touch on the quality of the beans, nor how those flavors are developed and maintained through roasting. measuring the darkness of roast does not tell you how dark the coffee should have been roasted for optimum flavor profile. I'm not aware that it can be done analytically, it requires trained tastebuds, and in my experience, tastebuds trained on many coffees over time (a sort of 10,000 hours type idea, probably needs neuroplasticity); most roasters have a sort of narrow "tunnel vision" based around their own coffees which they taste relentlessly. to actually taste delicious coffee it needs to cool down quite a bit, below 130F 55C which is not very hot. I understand the pleasure of a hot cup of coffee, but that pleasure is not flavor pleasure.

anon84873628 5mo ago
Yes, but once your target roast and strength is dialed in, this can easily be used for quality control. Keep in mind that the coffee industry is very different than home specialty brews.
Xmd5a 5mo ago
Isn't this whole approach to coffee similar to audiophily? I'm asking this as an avid coffee drinker (fancy grains, with a fancy machine) and an appreciator of headphones as well : when should one stop the quest for perfection? For headphones, anything beyond 400-500$ is not reasonable, since past this limit you start chasing gains that are barely perceptible or are a question of taste and you'll be able to find equivalent headphones that cost less. Where do you draw the limit personally ?
- ricardobayes 5mo ago
  I think it's very comparable: the current dialogue in "coffee" circles revolve around the usage of "steamed water" that supposedly improves the taste. I remember similar discussions around cables in audio circles.
  - benj111 5mo ago
    Well steamed water was a rabbit hole. Although surely you would need to make the steam from steamed steam for optimal results?
    - TeMPOraL 5mo ago
      > Although surely you would need to make the steam from steamed steam for optimal results? Well, it's a complex question. I'd suggest to start from plotting your favorite coffee hardware brands and barista youtubers/tiktokers over the phase diagram of water, and continue from there. Once you get comfortable with thinking about coffee in Scientific Terms, one avenue to explore is to try and embed the aforementioned phase/opinion water diagram plane into the larger Great Material Continuum hyperspace. To do that, you add a third axis: price (for hardware obviously by MSRP/catalog price; for vloggers, plot specific tips or steps by price of ingredients they use). Having done that, you should have all the tools needed to make informed decisions in this space - just compare the paths water takes through this enriched 3D phase diagram as it turns into steam and then your beverage using any given method and combination of equipment :).
  - zimpenfish 5mo ago
    > "steamed water" that supposedly improves the taste If that's about americano, James Hoffmann[0] covered why this might be the case - normally you use the steam wand to provide the water for the americano but that water has been sitting in a tank being heated and cooled and gradually evaporating down to concentrate all the bad stuff. If you use the wand to steam fresh water, you don't get all the crud. Seems simple and logical enough. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0HdzJz_evNw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0HdzJz_evNw (skip to about 5:00 for the explanation)
    - kelipso 5mo ago
      That’s one aspect but he tried kettle heated water too and steaming the water produced better results according to the video. So most likely the air in the steamed water is what produces the better taste and texture. And about the audiophile analogy upthread…some people don’t have good taste buds and other people have very sensitive tastebuds. One should have a bit of humility and not be the equivalent of a color blind person declaring that red and green are actually the same color and you must be imagining the difference.
- fabian2k 5mo ago
  I have a 200 EUR handgrinder and an Aeropress. That's about the limit for me, there isn't really anything else to improve there for filter coffee. There's probably a lot more ways to make different coffee, but not that much room for making the same coffee better. I also don't want to mess with the water, so that puts a ceiling on coffee quality anyway. There's some legitimate room to spend much more money when making Espresso. But a lot of the more expensive options would be more about the workflow than quality. If you need to make many Espressos in quick succession you'll hit the limits of cheaper equipment.
  - cyberpunk 5mo ago
    I much prefer v60 to what i can produce with my aeropress, and one benefit is no plastic. Worth a try if you get the itch.
    - danielbln 5mo ago
      I have the glass and metal Aeropress, so if you fancy the Aeropress but don't fancy boiled plastic, that's an option.
- Tade0 5mo ago
  My cousin bought a used professional coffee machine that looked like a piece of industrial equipment - tread plate and all. Most of the time he would ask you if you want your coffee too sour or too bitter, but this one time he managed to get all the parameters so right, that he brewed something which tasted like thick, coffee soup. Outright teleported me to 1960s São Paulo to which I've, BTW, never been. I've been chasing this taste ever since, but my cousin still hasn't been able to repeat the feat.
- danielbln 5mo ago
  I came around from fancy everything to just reasonably good beans and an Aeropress. And in the office I'll just saunter to the press-a-button-get-coffee machine, I eventually got tired of the faffing around.
con-sulting 5mo ago
Local brewhaus has a 145° steamed milk policy, just a better flavor experience at lower temps. Many coffee testers/flavor judgment use the various strange ways of drinking coffee in tiny flavorful sips. I couldn't be the coffee tester, but I enjoy the work they do.
awedisee 5mo ago
[flagged]
nkmnz 5mo ago
It’s a scientific paper, not a product pitch.

by fsckboy 5mo ago

anon84873628 5mo ago

Yes, but once your target roast and strength is dialed in, this can easily be used for quality control. Keep in mind that the coffee industry is very different than home specialty brews.

Xmd5a 5mo ago

Isn't this whole approach to coffee similar to audiophily? I'm asking this as an avid coffee drinker (fancy grains, with a fancy machine) and an appreciator of headphones as well : when should one stop the quest for perfection? For headphones, anything beyond 400-500$ is not reasonable, since past this limit you start chasing gains that are barely perceptible or are a question of taste and you'll be able to find equivalent headphones that cost less. Where do you draw the limit personally ?

ricardobayes 5mo ago
I think it's very comparable: the current dialogue in "coffee" circles revolve around the usage of "steamed water" that supposedly improves the taste. I remember similar discussions around cables in audio circles.
- benj111 5mo ago
  Well steamed water was a rabbit hole. Although surely you would need to make the steam from steamed steam for optimal results?
  - TeMPOraL 5mo ago
    > Although surely you would need to make the steam from steamed steam for optimal results? Well, it's a complex question. I'd suggest to start from plotting your favorite coffee hardware brands and barista youtubers/tiktokers over the phase diagram of water, and continue from there. Once you get comfortable with thinking about coffee in Scientific Terms, one avenue to explore is to try and embed the aforementioned phase/opinion water diagram plane into the larger Great Material Continuum hyperspace. To do that, you add a third axis: price (for hardware obviously by MSRP/catalog price; for vloggers, plot specific tips or steps by price of ingredients they use). Having done that, you should have all the tools needed to make informed decisions in this space - just compare the paths water takes through this enriched 3D phase diagram as it turns into steam and then your beverage using any given method and combination of equipment :).
- zimpenfish 5mo ago
  > "steamed water" that supposedly improves the taste If that's about americano, James Hoffmann[0] covered why this might be the case - normally you use the steam wand to provide the water for the americano but that water has been sitting in a tank being heated and cooled and gradually evaporating down to concentrate all the bad stuff. If you use the wand to steam fresh water, you don't get all the crud. Seems simple and logical enough. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0HdzJz_evNw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0HdzJz_evNw (skip to about 5:00 for the explanation)
  - kelipso 5mo ago
    That’s one aspect but he tried kettle heated water too and steaming the water produced better results according to the video. So most likely the air in the steamed water is what produces the better taste and texture. And about the audiophile analogy upthread…some people don’t have good taste buds and other people have very sensitive tastebuds. One should have a bit of humility and not be the equivalent of a color blind person declaring that red and green are actually the same color and you must be imagining the difference.
fabian2k 5mo ago
I have a 200 EUR handgrinder and an Aeropress. That's about the limit for me, there isn't really anything else to improve there for filter coffee. There's probably a lot more ways to make different coffee, but not that much room for making the same coffee better. I also don't want to mess with the water, so that puts a ceiling on coffee quality anyway. There's some legitimate room to spend much more money when making Espresso. But a lot of the more expensive options would be more about the workflow than quality. If you need to make many Espressos in quick succession you'll hit the limits of cheaper equipment.
- cyberpunk 5mo ago
  I much prefer v60 to what i can produce with my aeropress, and one benefit is no plastic. Worth a try if you get the itch.
  - danielbln 5mo ago
    I have the glass and metal Aeropress, so if you fancy the Aeropress but don't fancy boiled plastic, that's an option.
Tade0 5mo ago
My cousin bought a used professional coffee machine that looked like a piece of industrial equipment - tread plate and all. Most of the time he would ask you if you want your coffee too sour or too bitter, but this one time he managed to get all the parameters so right, that he brewed something which tasted like thick, coffee soup. Outright teleported me to 1960s São Paulo to which I've, BTW, never been. I've been chasing this taste ever since, but my cousin still hasn't been able to repeat the feat.
danielbln 5mo ago
I came around from fancy everything to just reasonably good beans and an Aeropress. And in the office I'll just saunter to the press-a-button-get-coffee machine, I eventually got tired of the faffing around.

con-sulting 5mo ago

Local brewhaus has a 145° steamed milk policy, just a better flavor experience at lower temps. Many coffee testers/flavor judgment use the various strange ways of drinking coffee in tiny flavorful sips. I couldn't be the coffee tester, but I enjoy the work they do.

awedisee 5mo ago

[flagged]

nkmnz 5mo ago

It’s a scientific paper, not a product pitch.