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Advanced calculators are in an unusual space with external constraints on it. Some of the features or differentiation they add serves the constraint of "if you

Advanced calculators are in an unusual space with external constraints on it. Some of the features or differentiation they add serves the constraint of "if you don't, we won't let students use it in the classroom". When a calculator is used in a classroom, there's a concern about people using the calculator to replace the skill that's being taught. So, for instance, there's space for a calculator with no CAS, for a class that's trying to teach you to do algebra. That is in some ways easier than "don't use this function of the calculator".

ndriscoll 6mo ago
My linear algebra class used F_2 as our field probably half the time that it was specified. Realistically almost any course probably doesn't need calculators at all (or they could at least be kept for homework). If you're not teaching arithmetic, you keep the arithmetic simple. If you're not teaching algebra, you keep the algebra simple. etc.
Ekaros 6mo ago
It is not really classroom. It is more so setting testing standard that matches the standardised testing that schooling aims for. This ofc then extends to testing in classroom tests as that is best way to prepare students. Not that any of this matter anymore as it can be entirely replaced with LLMs in near future.
ndiddy 6mo ago
Yeah there's not really a purpose for advanced calculators anymore (apart from the niche market of people who just enjoy using them). Calculators are basically only a thing now to make it harder to cheat on exams. If you don't have that constraint, you might as well use Wolfram or Matlab or whatever.
- vkou 6mo ago
  Or, here's a wild idea - exam problems should be structured such that they do not require any advanced calculator. Math problems should not require any calculator. Physics problems should require a scientific calculator. Overcomplicating the arithmetic shouldn't be the point.
  - saagarjha 6mo ago
    Calculators can do a lot of things; a lot of physics is greatly improved by access to a good calculator.
  - nickelpro 6mo ago
    That rules out classes of problem which we want to teach, or falls back to using lookup tables which is more arduous and limits the number of problems which can be put on an exam. Teaching students to use lookup tables at all is a largely pointless exercise. Teaching students to graph or use statistical functions on an advanced calculator transfers very well to other environments.
    - vkou 6mo ago
      > That rules out classes of problem which we want to teach Does it? Could you give a contrived example of a high school problem that would be ruled out by a lack of a graphing calculator? > Teaching students to graph They should be able to plot any of the functions they'll be working with by hand, very quickly. > statistical functions If they are using statistics, they should be able to provide the relevant combinatorial coefficients as the answer (xCy, etc), without actually doing the computation. Not to mention that scientific calculators all support basic stats functions.
      - nickelpro 6mo ago
        You've already rejected elsewhere in the comments the style of problem these calculators are used for as either "more complicated than a high schooler is taught" or a "your teachers have wasted your time". Which is fine, you have an idiosyncratic view of modern mathematical pedagogy (at least as it exists in the US). When you're a high school math teacher you can argue with your state dept. of ed. about it. These calculators are also used at the undergrad level, fwiw, so the "high school level" (whatever limit you're putting on that, many high schools will accelerate students into undergrad stats and as far as Calc II), is not a factor in their use overall.

ndriscoll 6mo ago

My linear algebra class used F_2 as our field probably half the time that it was specified. Realistically almost any course probably doesn't need calculators at all (or they could at least be kept for homework). If you're not teaching arithmetic, you keep the arithmetic simple. If you're not teaching algebra, you keep the algebra simple. etc.

Ekaros 6mo ago

It is not really classroom. It is more so setting testing standard that matches the standardised testing that schooling aims for. This ofc then extends to testing in classroom tests as that is best way to prepare students. Not that any of this matter anymore as it can be entirely replaced with LLMs in near future.

ndiddy 6mo ago

Yeah there's not really a purpose for advanced calculators anymore (apart from the niche market of people who just enjoy using them). Calculators are basically only a thing now to make it harder to cheat on exams. If you don't have that constraint, you might as well use Wolfram or Matlab or whatever.

vkou 6mo ago
Or, here's a wild idea - exam problems should be structured such that they do not require any advanced calculator. Math problems should not require any calculator. Physics problems should require a scientific calculator. Overcomplicating the arithmetic shouldn't be the point.
- saagarjha 6mo ago
  Calculators can do a lot of things; a lot of physics is greatly improved by access to a good calculator.
- nickelpro 6mo ago
  That rules out classes of problem which we want to teach, or falls back to using lookup tables which is more arduous and limits the number of problems which can be put on an exam. Teaching students to use lookup tables at all is a largely pointless exercise. Teaching students to graph or use statistical functions on an advanced calculator transfers very well to other environments.
  - vkou 6mo ago
    > That rules out classes of problem which we want to teach Does it? Could you give a contrived example of a high school problem that would be ruled out by a lack of a graphing calculator? > Teaching students to graph They should be able to plot any of the functions they'll be working with by hand, very quickly. > statistical functions If they are using statistics, they should be able to provide the relevant combinatorial coefficients as the answer (xCy, etc), without actually doing the computation. Not to mention that scientific calculators all support basic stats functions.
    - nickelpro 6mo ago
      You've already rejected elsewhere in the comments the style of problem these calculators are used for as either "more complicated than a high schooler is taught" or a "your teachers have wasted your time". Which is fine, you have an idiosyncratic view of modern mathematical pedagogy (at least as it exists in the US). When you're a high school math teacher you can argue with your state dept. of ed. about it. These calculators are also used at the undergrad level, fwiw, so the "high school level" (whatever limit you're putting on that, many high schools will accelerate students into undergrad stats and as far as Calc II), is not a factor in their use overall.