6 ms·

Rewriting Reddit (2005)

81 points by redDragon 14y ago

evan_ 14y ago
> My friends over at reddit.com rewrote their site from Lisp to Python in the past week. It was pretty much done after one weekend. It should probably be noted that this is from 2005. > The Lisp newsgroup, comp.lang.lisp, was upset about the switch that they’re currently planning to write a competitor to reddit in Lisp, to show how right they are or something. Here's what became of that: http://www.cl-user.net/asp/new http://www.cl-user.net/asp/new
- danso 14y ago
  Wow, reading the newsgroup discussion was fascinating...and didn't reflect well at all on LIsp or its adherents, even though they were acting in the best spirit of hackers.
- ben0x539 14y ago
  From that site: https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups=#!topic/comp.lang.lisp/KMdpv4MwI4M https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups=#!topic/comp.lan... "The Common Lisp Directory rewritten in Python" ;-)
  - stesch 14y ago
    Look at the date. :-)
  - irahul 14y ago
    https://groups.google.com/d/msg/comp.lang.lisp/KMdpv4MwI4M/ANhvu-43-RwJ https://groups.google.com/d/msg/comp.lang.lisp/KMdpv4MwI4M/A... An April fool's joke.
- Evbn 14y ago
  I though HN is the Lisp reincarnation of red it.
VaucGiaps 14y ago
Please put 2005 in the title.
- redDragon 14y ago
  Oops! no way to edit now :(
superxor 14y ago
Though the article is new to me I don't understand the context of this submission. (Never using web.py and not being fully aware of Django's status in 2005) I see that overall they seem to have faired well. All you need is a settings.py file to run a Django app. The templating is slow performance-wise but pretty expressive. I love that the Django community as a whole is pretty responsive to criticism. The 'Why Django Sucks' talk at DjangoCon is an example. My biggest complaint was the horrible User model (you cannot not have 'username' for a Django app using the User model). But they've fixed it now. The major complaint against Django is that it is monolithic, but the devs have worked hard to keep the system decoupled allowing one to replace most modules. But if you want something small Django is not the one for you I guess, and there is nothing wrong in it. One size fits all is never possible to achieve and not a good solution too.
- raverbashing 14y ago
  Django 1.5 has pluggable user models (at last!) If you're looking for a nice Python web framework, try Pylons/Pyramid Pylons is loosely coupled. Not Django. Django is not bad and it certainly makes it easier for 99% of projects out there (CMS style). But for the 1% it's a pain.
  - TazeTSchnitzel 14y ago
    I'd suggest Flask. Flask is a very lightweight microframework, yet it contains everything you need to write a web app in Python. If you want to write everything in one file with Flask, you can. If you need several files, you can do that. You can use proper views if you want. Or not.
    - anthonyb 14y ago
      It doesn't contain everything you need at all - that's why it's called a microframework. If you want to use an ORM, or have database backed sessions, or user logins, you need to write all that yourself. For example: http://flask.pocoo.org/docs/patterns/sqlalchemy/ http://flask.pocoo.org/docs/patterns/sqlalchemy/ Depending on what you're doing, that might be a good thing - but I find writing things which are already included in Django pretty annoying.
pyxy 14y ago
Though this is 'old news' I was surprised by knowing who stands behind web.py. Several years ago I was doing a little cozy web questionary tool and after trying Django, PHP, Perl, etc I've come to web.py framework. It was pleasure to work with databases, web templates, etc in web.py environment. I really enjoyed making the tool and the result code was tiny, clean and easy for understanding. Though it was a tiny tool I was very proud and next time I used web.py for a bigger project (proprietary for internal use only) and it was pleasure again. Recently I've read three parts of "raw nerve" articles and found them interesting. But I didn't even pay attention on author's name. Now reading "Rewriting Reddit" all the pieces has been bringed together and I'm thankful to Aaron for his web.py and "raw nerve" articles.
jfaucett 14y ago
when talking about the API he states ": I imagined how things should work and then I made that happen... So how should things work? The first principle is that code should be clear and simple. If you want to output some text, you call web.output. If you want to get form input, you call web.input." This is beautiful and exactly what programmers need. I can't emphasize enough the importants of simple intuitive APIs. This, for example, is in my opinion the #1 reason why jQuery dominates web frontends.
danso 14y ago
Heh: Oh, and isn’t reddit’s real problem that they’re busy changing implementation languages (!) while digg is sorta kicking their butts? I don’t know which site is doing better financially (does either one even have a biz model? What might it be, one wonders), but digg seems more polished, has a more pleasent UI, seems more featureful, and more popular. Setting aside the Python v. Lisp debate (which is so boring and pointless), I’d hate to be in what seems to be reddit’s position: serious, robust competition and remaking fundamental tech decisions. Eek!
- diego 14y ago
  That was true back then. Nobody could foresee that Reddit would get acquired, and Digg would swing for the fences and fail. Among other things Digg got overly ambitious, and took what turned out to be too much funding in the subsequent years. In the meantime, Reddit was growing organically under Conde Nast without the pressure of VCs looking for a return. Digg was forced to take big risks, and we know how it turned out.
edanm 14y ago
This is from 2005. I'd be very interested in hearing which of the criticisms against Django are still relevant, and which have been fixed. I've been using Django for a few years, and love it, but I don't really know what the state of Django was in 2005 and many of the things mentioned seemed, to me, to no longer be present. Then again, I haven't used web.py, so maybe there is a better way than Django in some areas I'm not aware of.
- LeonidasXIV 14y ago
  web.py was viewed as a big joke, because it was quite crude. Django has merged the magic-removal branch a long time ago, pre 1.0 and since the newforms branch (also merged aeons ago) it can generate forms and validation. The template language is limited by choice which might or not be a good thing. Personally I think the idea is good, just the execution is inferior to Jinja2. If you don't like it, you can replace it, that's what loosely coupled means. aaronsw things loosely coupled means it is a library. It is not, it has stayed a framework and that hasn't changed since 2005.
  - zalew 14y ago
    > web.py was viewed as a big joke and a few years later flask started as an april fools joke.
  - jdbernard 14y ago
    Crude how?
stesch 14y ago
This Arc language mentioned in the comments should be a big thing right now.
saosebastiao 14y ago
Even as somewhat of a lisp weenie myself, I still think they made the right decision at the time. If this had taken place in 2012, it would be another story. Clojure is an awesome web language, and so is Ruby/JRuby. Hell, even Node.js would be a good fit for reddit.

81 points by redDragon 14y ago

evan_ 14y ago

> My friends over at reddit.com rewrote their site from Lisp to Python in the past week. It was pretty much done after one weekend. It should probably be noted that this is from 2005. > The Lisp newsgroup, comp.lang.lisp, was upset about the switch that they’re currently planning to write a competitor to reddit in Lisp, to show how right they are or something. Here's what became of that: http://www.cl-user.net/asp/new http://www.cl-user.net/asp/new

danso 14y ago
Wow, reading the newsgroup discussion was fascinating...and didn't reflect well at all on LIsp or its adherents, even though they were acting in the best spirit of hackers.
ben0x539 14y ago
From that site: https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups=#!topic/comp.lang.lisp/KMdpv4MwI4M https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups=#!topic/comp.lan... "The Common Lisp Directory rewritten in Python" ;-)
- stesch 14y ago
  Look at the date. :-)
- irahul 14y ago
  https://groups.google.com/d/msg/comp.lang.lisp/KMdpv4MwI4M/ANhvu-43-RwJ https://groups.google.com/d/msg/comp.lang.lisp/KMdpv4MwI4M/A... An April fool's joke.
Evbn 14y ago
I though HN is the Lisp reincarnation of red it.

VaucGiaps 14y ago

Please put 2005 in the title.

redDragon 14y ago
Oops! no way to edit now :(

superxor 14y ago

Though the article is new to me I don't understand the context of this submission. (Never using web.py and not being fully aware of Django's status in 2005) I see that overall they seem to have faired well. All you need is a settings.py file to run a Django app. The templating is slow performance-wise but pretty expressive. I love that the Django community as a whole is pretty responsive to criticism. The 'Why Django Sucks' talk at DjangoCon is an example. My biggest complaint was the horrible User model (you cannot not have 'username' for a Django app using the User model). But they've fixed it now. The major complaint against Django is that it is monolithic, but the devs have worked hard to keep the system decoupled allowing one to replace most modules. But if you want something small Django is not the one for you I guess, and there is nothing wrong in it. One size fits all is never possible to achieve and not a good solution too.

raverbashing 14y ago
Django 1.5 has pluggable user models (at last!) If you're looking for a nice Python web framework, try Pylons/Pyramid Pylons is loosely coupled. Not Django. Django is not bad and it certainly makes it easier for 99% of projects out there (CMS style). But for the 1% it's a pain.
- TazeTSchnitzel 14y ago
  I'd suggest Flask. Flask is a very lightweight microframework, yet it contains everything you need to write a web app in Python. If you want to write everything in one file with Flask, you can. If you need several files, you can do that. You can use proper views if you want. Or not.
  - anthonyb 14y ago
    It doesn't contain everything you need at all - that's why it's called a microframework. If you want to use an ORM, or have database backed sessions, or user logins, you need to write all that yourself. For example: http://flask.pocoo.org/docs/patterns/sqlalchemy/ http://flask.pocoo.org/docs/patterns/sqlalchemy/ Depending on what you're doing, that might be a good thing - but I find writing things which are already included in Django pretty annoying.

pyxy 14y ago

Though this is 'old news' I was surprised by knowing who stands behind web.py. Several years ago I was doing a little cozy web questionary tool and after trying Django, PHP, Perl, etc I've come to web.py framework. It was pleasure to work with databases, web templates, etc in web.py environment. I really enjoyed making the tool and the result code was tiny, clean and easy for understanding. Though it was a tiny tool I was very proud and next time I used web.py for a bigger project (proprietary for internal use only) and it was pleasure again. Recently I've read three parts of "raw nerve" articles and found them interesting. But I didn't even pay attention on author's name. Now reading "Rewriting Reddit" all the pieces has been bringed together and I'm thankful to Aaron for his web.py and "raw nerve" articles.

jfaucett 14y ago

when talking about the API he states ": I imagined how things should work and then I made that happen... So how should things work? The first principle is that code should be clear and simple. If you want to output some text, you call web.output. If you want to get form input, you call web.input." This is beautiful and exactly what programmers need. I can't emphasize enough the importants of simple intuitive APIs. This, for example, is in my opinion the #1 reason why jQuery dominates web frontends.

danso 14y ago

Heh: Oh, and isn’t reddit’s real problem that they’re busy changing implementation languages (!) while digg is sorta kicking their butts? I don’t know which site is doing better financially (does either one even have a biz model? What might it be, one wonders), but digg seems more polished, has a more pleasent UI, seems more featureful, and more popular. Setting aside the Python v. Lisp debate (which is so boring and pointless), I’d hate to be in what seems to be reddit’s position: serious, robust competition and remaking fundamental tech decisions. Eek!

diego 14y ago
That was true back then. Nobody could foresee that Reddit would get acquired, and Digg would swing for the fences and fail. Among other things Digg got overly ambitious, and took what turned out to be too much funding in the subsequent years. In the meantime, Reddit was growing organically under Conde Nast without the pressure of VCs looking for a return. Digg was forced to take big risks, and we know how it turned out.

edanm 14y ago

This is from 2005. I'd be very interested in hearing which of the criticisms against Django are still relevant, and which have been fixed. I've been using Django for a few years, and love it, but I don't really know what the state of Django was in 2005 and many of the things mentioned seemed, to me, to no longer be present. Then again, I haven't used web.py, so maybe there is a better way than Django in some areas I'm not aware of.

LeonidasXIV 14y ago
web.py was viewed as a big joke, because it was quite crude. Django has merged the magic-removal branch a long time ago, pre 1.0 and since the newforms branch (also merged aeons ago) it can generate forms and validation. The template language is limited by choice which might or not be a good thing. Personally I think the idea is good, just the execution is inferior to Jinja2. If you don't like it, you can replace it, that's what loosely coupled means. aaronsw things loosely coupled means it is a library. It is not, it has stayed a framework and that hasn't changed since 2005.
- zalew 14y ago
  > web.py was viewed as a big joke and a few years later flask started as an april fools joke.
- jdbernard 14y ago
  Crude how?

stesch 14y ago

This Arc language mentioned in the comments should be a big thing right now.

saosebastiao 14y ago

Even as somewhat of a lisp weenie myself, I still think they made the right decision at the time. If this had taken place in 2012, it would be another story. Clojure is an awesome web language, and so is Ruby/JRuby. Hell, even Node.js would be a good fit for reddit.