5 ms·

Powerprice in Germany today minus 500€/MWh. Nuclear power is economic madness in an environment where we see negative electricity prices practically every day.

by boshomi 5mo ago

asdefghyk 5mo ago
What happens when there is wide bad weather for renewables? ( for a range of days from 1 - several) Where would the power needed come from? If, it was to be from some kind of storage, Extra capacity would be needed to allow recharging of the storage
- lostlogin 5mo ago
  Bad weather often comes with wind or rain. Obviously it’s possible for solar, hydro and wind farms to stop producing, but that’s what storage is for.
  - ishtanbul 5mo ago
    Not really. Storage is most used for short term stabilization and alleviating congestion in certain transmission nodes. In most markets its used to provide capacity under contract with utilities to meet resource adequacy requirements which don’t consider long term regional complete loss of renewables. Longer term storage that can provide power to, say, a whole region during a multi-day storm is basically an uneconomic fantasy that rational developers have no real incentive to build, because it would be a huge overbuild most of the time, and accordingly undercompensated for said overbuild. Developers are building batteries that are just the right size for a capacity contract & providing ancillary services (voltage support, frequency regulation, etc) plus price arbitrage, which are deployed for only minutes to a few hours. There are some 8 hour duration batteries out there, but they are not common.
    - asdefghyk 5mo ago
      Multiday renewable droughts ( solar and wind ) are a significant challenge. ( A further problem would be if a renewables drought occurred at a (multiday) peak demand period ) Appropriate (often new) wide area, power transmission networks can help to reduce this risk. Renewables also need to be over provisioned to reduce the risks, which could be blackouts or some kind of power rationing (via "smart meters" )
      - tcfhgj 5mo ago
        ideally power rationing is not needed thanks to the electricity market - and you could still perform an intentional brown out to avoid a black out
    - lostlogin 5mo ago
      The specific battery I had in mind was hydro. New Zealand is contemplating a large project (didn’t think we into infrastructure any more) which is considerably more capacity than a few hours. https://newsroom.co.nz/2025/10/17/the-lake-onslow-pumped-hydro-is-dead-long-live-the-lake-onslow-hydro/ https://newsroom.co.nz/2025/10/17/the-lake-onslow-pumped-hyd...
- boshomi 5mo ago
  Wind and solar power are remarkably stable in Europe. Last year, the average weekly electricity output was 14.0TWh; not a single week fell below 10.5 TWh. Weather fronts move across the continent on a very regular basis; when the wind dies down, the sun shines more.
  - ImJamal 5mo ago
    Surely global warming is going to lead to a less stable environment going forward?
- Dunedan 5mo ago
  Mind that nuclear power relies on favorable weather as well. It's not uncommon in Europe that nuclear power plants have to shut down, because the rivers they use for cooling become too hot.
  - Moldoteck 5mo ago
    Not quite. It's done to save fish. And it's not fixed because France is already maxing exports in the same period
julienfr112 5mo ago
If Germany power prices are so low, why are Germans power bills so high ? Maybe you are cherry picking spot/marginal price and not netting the subsides ?
- tcfhgj 5mo ago
  higher prices means more incentives to be energy efficient
  - Moldoteck 5mo ago
    for now its incentive for deindustrialization
    - tcfhgj 5mo ago
      everything good for humans appears to be an incentive for deindustrialization
- frm88 5mo ago
  Taxes and levies make up up to 60% of the energy prices. https://blackout-news.de/en/news/electricity-prices-in-germany-why-households-pay-more-than-in-the-rest-of-europe/ https://blackout-news.de/en/news/electricity-prices-in-germa...
  - Moldoteck 5mo ago
    and why are taxes that high. More specifically why is Germany spending 10x more than france on curtailment and transmission?))
Dunedan 5mo ago
While the spot market price for electricity in Germany gets negative from time to time, it's far away from doing so every day. https://energy-charts.info/charts/price_spot_market/chart.htm?l=en&c=DE&interval=year&legendItems=ly8&stacking=sparkline https://energy-charts.info/charts/price_spot_market/chart.ht...
mpweiher 5mo ago
The madness is not the nuclear power but the catastrophic energy "system" that has produced these results. Nuclear power would help to solve these problems, because it isn't intermittent.
Moldoteck 5mo ago
Germany has highest avg household prices in EU per eurostat. How convenient of you to focus on this day. Btw, this minus 500eur translates in about 18bn/y in subsidies for EEG. DE already spent on it alone double the price of entire french fleet

Powerprice in Germany today minus 500€/MWh. Nuclear power is economic madness in an environment where we see negative electricity prices practically every day.

by boshomi 5mo ago

Powerprice in Germany today minus 500€/MWh. Nuclear power is economic madness in an environment where we see negative electricity prices practically every day.

asdefghyk 5mo ago

What happens when there is wide bad weather for renewables? ( for a range of days from 1 - several) Where would the power needed come from? If, it was to be from some kind of storage, Extra capacity would be needed to allow recharging of the storage

lostlogin 5mo ago
Bad weather often comes with wind or rain. Obviously it’s possible for solar, hydro and wind farms to stop producing, but that’s what storage is for.
- ishtanbul 5mo ago
  Not really. Storage is most used for short term stabilization and alleviating congestion in certain transmission nodes. In most markets its used to provide capacity under contract with utilities to meet resource adequacy requirements which don’t consider long term regional complete loss of renewables. Longer term storage that can provide power to, say, a whole region during a multi-day storm is basically an uneconomic fantasy that rational developers have no real incentive to build, because it would be a huge overbuild most of the time, and accordingly undercompensated for said overbuild. Developers are building batteries that are just the right size for a capacity contract & providing ancillary services (voltage support, frequency regulation, etc) plus price arbitrage, which are deployed for only minutes to a few hours. There are some 8 hour duration batteries out there, but they are not common.
  - asdefghyk 5mo ago
    Multiday renewable droughts ( solar and wind ) are a significant challenge. ( A further problem would be if a renewables drought occurred at a (multiday) peak demand period ) Appropriate (often new) wide area, power transmission networks can help to reduce this risk. Renewables also need to be over provisioned to reduce the risks, which could be blackouts or some kind of power rationing (via "smart meters" )
    - tcfhgj 5mo ago
      ideally power rationing is not needed thanks to the electricity market - and you could still perform an intentional brown out to avoid a black out
  - lostlogin 5mo ago
    The specific battery I had in mind was hydro. New Zealand is contemplating a large project (didn’t think we into infrastructure any more) which is considerably more capacity than a few hours. https://newsroom.co.nz/2025/10/17/the-lake-onslow-pumped-hydro-is-dead-long-live-the-lake-onslow-hydro/ https://newsroom.co.nz/2025/10/17/the-lake-onslow-pumped-hyd...
boshomi 5mo ago
Wind and solar power are remarkably stable in Europe. Last year, the average weekly electricity output was 14.0TWh; not a single week fell below 10.5 TWh. Weather fronts move across the continent on a very regular basis; when the wind dies down, the sun shines more.
- ImJamal 5mo ago
  Surely global warming is going to lead to a less stable environment going forward?
Dunedan 5mo ago
Mind that nuclear power relies on favorable weather as well. It's not uncommon in Europe that nuclear power plants have to shut down, because the rivers they use for cooling become too hot.
- Moldoteck 5mo ago
  Not quite. It's done to save fish. And it's not fixed because France is already maxing exports in the same period

julienfr112 5mo ago

If Germany power prices are so low, why are Germans power bills so high ? Maybe you are cherry picking spot/marginal price and not netting the subsides ?

tcfhgj 5mo ago
higher prices means more incentives to be energy efficient
- Moldoteck 5mo ago
  for now its incentive for deindustrialization
  - tcfhgj 5mo ago
    everything good for humans appears to be an incentive for deindustrialization
frm88 5mo ago
Taxes and levies make up up to 60% of the energy prices. https://blackout-news.de/en/news/electricity-prices-in-germany-why-households-pay-more-than-in-the-rest-of-europe/ https://blackout-news.de/en/news/electricity-prices-in-germa...
- Moldoteck 5mo ago
  and why are taxes that high. More specifically why is Germany spending 10x more than france on curtailment and transmission?))

Dunedan 5mo ago

While the spot market price for electricity in Germany gets negative from time to time, it's far away from doing so every day. https://energy-charts.info/charts/price_spot_market/chart.htm?l=en&c=DE&interval=year&legendItems=ly8&stacking=sparkline https://energy-charts.info/charts/price_spot_market/chart.ht...

mpweiher 5mo ago

The madness is not the nuclear power but the catastrophic energy "system" that has produced these results. Nuclear power would help to solve these problems, because it isn't intermittent.

Moldoteck 5mo ago

Germany has highest avg household prices in EU per eurostat. How convenient of you to focus on this day. Btw, this minus 500eur translates in about 18bn/y in subsidies for EEG. DE already spent on it alone double the price of entire french fleet