5 ms·

So you still haven't come up with a monopoly example. Can you prove that monopolies would exist in a completely free market?

by snitko 14y ago

mkr-hn 14y ago
It's hard to create examples of something in a system that has never existed.
- CamperBob2 14y ago
  He rephrased his question, and he shouldn't have, because his original one works pretty well. Can you name a single instance of a harmful monopoly that didn't either form or persist because of government backing? No goalpost-moving this time.
  - Steko 14y ago
    Are you claiming that no one has ever possessed a local monopoly on a resource that produced negative consumer effects? Pretty laughable claim and clearly false on hundreds of thousands of counts. Or are you ready to turn your back on basic property rights as an evil cooked up by the big bad gubmint?
    - CamperBob2 14y ago
      Are you claiming that no one has ever possessed a local monopoly on a resource that produced negative consumer effects? Such monopolies either (a) aren't really monopolies, despite people whining that they are; (b) don't last; or (c) have to be backed with collective force of some sort. Pretty laughable claim and clearly false on hundreds of thousands of counts. Then I'm sure you'll have no problem naming a few, in between the guffaws.
  - mkr-hn 14y ago
    Windows And who's moving goalposts? That seems like a random, out of nowhere comment.
    - praxeologist 14y ago
      Windows' monopoly relies upon state-granted monopoly powers (patent/copyright). http://archive.mises.org/17366/apple-vs-microsoft-which-benefits-more-from-intellectual-property/ http://archive.mises.org/17366/apple-vs-microsoft-which-bene...
      - mkr-hn 14y ago
        The entire PC compatible movement would have been crushed by IBM mercenaries going garage-to-garage in a free market fantasy land. Bill Gates, coming from a wealthy family, would be the only one who could afford his own mercenaries.
        CamperBob2 14y ago
        Nobody asked about what "would" have happened. That's what I meant by goalpost-moving.
        mkr-hn 14y ago
        It's like we're talking different languages. You said: "Can you name a single instance of a harmful monopoly that didn't either form or persist because of government backing?" One possible answer: Windows You asked a question. You got a suitable answer. What more is there to say? What is this "goal post" you keep referring to? I know you're eager to roll out the "copyright and patents are government-granted monopolies" line. But those don't work as monopolies in comparing governments to contracts in imaginary free market systems. Remove government, and businesses would develop their own systems like copyright and patents, which they would privately enforce through contract, private prisons, and mercenaries. You still end up with a Windows monopoly because Bill Gates started life with a lawyer and banker for parents. You replace one system with another that's almost identical, but small businesses lose any kind of recourse if a bigger business decides it owns a particular creation.
        CamperBob2 14y ago
joelhaus 14y ago
Think infrastructure. Consider utilities, internet, interstate highways or any similar circumstance. On a practical level, I don't see how these exist without government. The risk would be astronomical for a private entity to undertake such a massive investment that relies on negotiations with thousands of individual private property owners. However, if a private entity could pull it off, they would have extraordinary pricing power. Not my idea of utopia.
- mkr-hn 14y ago
  A good way to get a free marketeer to stop talking is to ask them to come up with a free market system that doesn't end up hopelessly stratified. I don't know whether they shut down, like a killer AI given an unsolvable problem, or start reevaluating their views.
- snitko 14y ago
  Your argument comes down to "but who's gonna build roads?" which is somewhat of a statist meme among libertarians. In short, it's this: roads are built by private contractors hired by the government, those contractors are paid by taxpayers money. Government acts as a middle man, which, indeed, may be necessary to coordinate the project, however it holds an ultimate monopoly for the middle man. There's no reason why one middle man should exist to coordinate building all roads. When you talk about risks in undertaking an investment, it means there might not be enough demand for something that the government does and so taxpayers in fact are investing in things not enough people actually need to justify the investment. Which simply means that the government is an irresponsible fund manager.

So you still haven't come up with a monopoly example. Can you prove that monopolies would exist in a completely free market?

by snitko 14y ago

So you still haven't come up with a monopoly example. Can you prove that monopolies would exist in a completely free market?

mkr-hn 14y ago

It's hard to create examples of something in a system that has never existed.

CamperBob2 14y ago
He rephrased his question, and he shouldn't have, because his original one works pretty well. Can you name a single instance of a harmful monopoly that didn't either form or persist because of government backing? No goalpost-moving this time.
- Steko 14y ago
  Are you claiming that no one has ever possessed a local monopoly on a resource that produced negative consumer effects? Pretty laughable claim and clearly false on hundreds of thousands of counts. Or are you ready to turn your back on basic property rights as an evil cooked up by the big bad gubmint?
  - CamperBob2 14y ago
    Are you claiming that no one has ever possessed a local monopoly on a resource that produced negative consumer effects? Such monopolies either (a) aren't really monopolies, despite people whining that they are; (b) don't last; or (c) have to be backed with collective force of some sort. Pretty laughable claim and clearly false on hundreds of thousands of counts. Then I'm sure you'll have no problem naming a few, in between the guffaws.
- mkr-hn 14y ago
  Windows And who's moving goalposts? That seems like a random, out of nowhere comment.
  - praxeologist 14y ago
    Windows' monopoly relies upon state-granted monopoly powers (patent/copyright). http://archive.mises.org/17366/apple-vs-microsoft-which-benefits-more-from-intellectual-property/ http://archive.mises.org/17366/apple-vs-microsoft-which-bene...
    - mkr-hn 14y ago
      The entire PC compatible movement would have been crushed by IBM mercenaries going garage-to-garage in a free market fantasy land. Bill Gates, coming from a wealthy family, would be the only one who could afford his own mercenaries.
      - CamperBob2 14y ago
        Nobody asked about what "would" have happened. That's what I meant by goalpost-moving.
        mkr-hn 14y ago
        It's like we're talking different languages. You said: "Can you name a single instance of a harmful monopoly that didn't either form or persist because of government backing?" One possible answer: Windows You asked a question. You got a suitable answer. What more is there to say? What is this "goal post" you keep referring to? I know you're eager to roll out the "copyright and patents are government-granted monopolies" line. But those don't work as monopolies in comparing governments to contracts in imaginary free market systems. Remove government, and businesses would develop their own systems like copyright and patents, which they would privately enforce through contract, private prisons, and mercenaries. You still end up with a Windows monopoly because Bill Gates started life with a lawyer and banker for parents. You replace one system with another that's almost identical, but small businesses lose any kind of recourse if a bigger business decides it owns a particular creation.
        CamperBob2 14y ago

joelhaus 14y ago

Think infrastructure. Consider utilities, internet, interstate highways or any similar circumstance. On a practical level, I don't see how these exist without government. The risk would be astronomical for a private entity to undertake such a massive investment that relies on negotiations with thousands of individual private property owners. However, if a private entity could pull it off, they would have extraordinary pricing power. Not my idea of utopia.

mkr-hn 14y ago
A good way to get a free marketeer to stop talking is to ask them to come up with a free market system that doesn't end up hopelessly stratified. I don't know whether they shut down, like a killer AI given an unsolvable problem, or start reevaluating their views.
snitko 14y ago
Your argument comes down to "but who's gonna build roads?" which is somewhat of a statist meme among libertarians. In short, it's this: roads are built by private contractors hired by the government, those contractors are paid by taxpayers money. Government acts as a middle man, which, indeed, may be necessary to coordinate the project, however it holds an ultimate monopoly for the middle man. There's no reason why one middle man should exist to coordinate building all roads. When you talk about risks in undertaking an investment, it means there might not be enough demand for something that the government does and so taxpayers in fact are investing in things not enough people actually need to justify the investment. Which simply means that the government is an irresponsible fund manager.