6 ms·

Still they are rather humane compared to their enemy who is actively targeting civilians. And have been doing that so for years. What is your solution to this

by eitland 14y ago

Still they are rather humane compared to their enemy who is actively targeting civilians. And have been doing that so for years. What is your solution to this conflict that doesn't include wiping the only national state for the Israeli people, created by UN, off the map? Hamas has been quite clear there will be no lasting peace until that has happened as far as I know. (Full disclosure: I don't read arabic so I'm have to trust the translations but they seem to agree.)

pyre 14y ago
Well, bombing the Gaza Strip is clearly working. The conflict is all but over. Oh wait...
- yonilevy 14y ago
  It has been proven helpful in reducing the amount of rockets fired at Israeli civillans[1]. I'll repeat the above question, what's your solution? [1] Number of rockets fired from Gaza Strip to Israel over time; a similar operation took place in December 2008 http://sonoflaser.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/%D7%A9%D7%99%D7%92%D7%95%D7%A8%D7%99%D7%9D.jpg http://sonoflaser.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/%D7%A9%D7%9...
  - AtlasLion 14y ago
    So you see it an acceptable to slaughter 1,417 Palestinians, for the "feeling" of safety of Israelis. Palestinians on the other hand, shouldn't expect any safety or dignity. And again, read this book if you really are thinking about a solution. http://mikopeled.com/category/the-generals-son-by-miko-peled/ http://mikopeled.com/category/the-generals-son-by-miko-peled...
    - yonilevy 14y ago
      Had you asked about the death of ~500 Palestinian civillians and ~700 Hamas members in exchange for the improved safety of Israelis under the given conditions, my answer would be yes. I can't really explain it over HN comments though. I've skimmed through the page linked, couldn't find anything relevant to the current situation. I might read further, thanks for sharing.
  - pyre 14y ago
    > I'll repeat the above question, what's your solution? Responses like this are not aimed to be constructive, but to put a stop to reasonable discussion. If I see that the current strategy is ineffective, I'm not allowed to say so until I have a fully-formed solution that is better? It's better to relentlessly pursue a course of action that is ineffective and has a significant cost in human lives, because 'we' can't think of anything better to do?
    - oelewapperke 14y ago
      How about we take the declaration of human rights solution. As soon as one side in the conflict uses non-clearly marked military bases and/or forces, the other side gains the right to fire on civilians if they suspect (not: can prove) that there are disguised combatants and/or military equipment near them. Does that sound reasonable ? If Israel stops fighting today, tomorrow the holocaust restarts. If Palestine stops fighting today, tomorrow we have peace.
    - yonilevy 14y ago
      I didn't mean to stop the discussion, I'm simply trying to understand your point of view (I might learn something). Do you think Israel should sit idly by while the 25K citizens of Sderot can hardly live their lives?
      - kamaal 14y ago
        They absolutely can't. Yes, you are right. The alternatives? Two state solution needs to go ahead. But Israel seems to be in full steam to stop the current UN bid. At the same time they don't want a one state solution either(Which more or less is sort of inevitable now). Their neighbors don't love them much. No matter who they are, the rulers of those nations might, out of force. And that more or less is only to save their seats. But Arab spring has proven nothing is permanent. Egypt only looked super pro Israel under Mubarak and now is super pro Palestine just months after. Absolutely the worst sort of geographical location to be and form your nation. Unless you want to be in a perpetual state of war, crisis and fighting. Yes Israel seems to have an upper hand in military wise currently, but as I said what is permanent? But Israel was not formed to be in an infinite state of war, but for Jews around the world to live in peace and without fear. A big deadlock situation, dominated by massive distrust between both parties.
AtlasLion 14y ago
sorry, but when you look at civilian death rate and compare both sides the story is very different. whatever measures the IDF claims it is taking, it clearly isn't working. Edit: As for a solution, read "the General's Son" by Miko Peled. The Son of an Israeli General http://mikopeled.com/category/the-generals-son-by-miko-peled/ http://mikopeled.com/category/the-generals-son-by-miko-peled...
- aes256 14y ago
  > sorry, but when you look at civilian death rate and compare both sides the story is very different. whatever measures the IDF claims it is taking, it clearly isn't working. In what sense is it not working? According to the latest figures, more than 500 targets have been hit, with 19 combatants and 10 civilians killed. In most comparable conflicts, the number of civilian casualties far outnumbers the number of combatant casualties.
kamaal 14y ago
Both the parties are to blame here. Killings can't be justified no matter who does it. Its has to stop, terrorizing civilians in large cities is as much a cowardly act as much sending F-16s to bomb a helpless crowd.
- maratd 14y ago
  I found a problem with your argument. Nobody is sending F-16s to bomb "helpless crowds". Only rocket launching sites.
  - kamaal 14y ago
    And that kills kids, and UN inspectors and civilians. And of course these rocket launchers are wrong too, needless to say their rockets kill kids and civilians too.
    - maratd 14y ago
      Ok, we're moving somewhere. If the F-16s didn't exist, the rockets would still kill all those children. But if the rockets didn't exist, the F-16s wouldn't kill any children! I think we just figured out the solution to the conflict!
      - mkr-hn 14y ago
        > use ROCKET on F-16
        maratd 14y ago
        That works too.
      - guelo 14y ago
        Although you never hear about it in most Western media Gaza militants also claim their attacks are responses to IDF attacks. The current escalation started when IDF killed a mentally challenged man and than a kid in an incursion a week ago. You can read about the tit for tats that have been going on here http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/how-israel-shattered-gaza-truce-leading-escalating-death-and-tragedy-timeline http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/how-israel-... To always blame the Gaza side as the aggressors and as terrorists is just to swallow IDF propaganda whole and uncritically. Did you know that before this current escalation Israel had struck Gaza hundred of times this year and killed 312 people including 61 kids, http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/11/15/bodies-for-ballots.html http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/11/15/bodies-for-... Who are the real terrorists? Oh, and it just so happens that there's an Israel election coming up.
anthonyb 14y ago
> Still they are rather humane Er, what? Go and look up the history of Irgun and Lehi. Israel is just as bad as anyone else in the conflict. Back in the 30s and 40s they were blowing up buses and shooting civilians every day: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Irgun_attacks http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Irgun_attacks Israel and Egypt continue to blockade medicine and food into Palestine, and restrict how people can move (bear in mind that there's basically no work in Palestine). How is that not deliberately targeting civilians? http://www.ipsnews.net/2010/07/mideast-israel-chokes-gaza-despite-announced-easing/ http://www.ipsnews.net/2010/07/mideast-israel-chokes-gaza-de... If you want to see what a solution looks like, just look at Northern Ireland. No aid blockades there...
- aes256 14y ago
  > Er, what? Go and look up the history of Irgun and Lehi. What do the actions of dissidents 70 years ago have to do with classifying current Israeli government policy as rather humane? You could spend the rest of your life investigating past wrongs on both side of this conflict, and you aren't going to get anywhere. > No aid blockades there... There is no aid blockade in Gaza either?
  - anthonyb 14y ago
    Because the attitude of Israel hasn't changed: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_David_Hotel_bombing#60th_anniversary_controversy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_David_Hotel_bombing#60th_a... The UN and the BBC disagree with you on the blockade: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5122404.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5122404.stm
    - aes256 14y ago
      > Because the attitude of Israel hasn't changed An utterly preposterous generalization. > The UN and the BBC disagree with you on the blockade No they don't. You referred to an 'aid blockade'. Legitimate aid flows freely into the Gaza Strip.

by eitland 14y ago

pyre 14y ago

Well, bombing the Gaza Strip is clearly working. The conflict is all but over. Oh wait...

yonilevy 14y ago
It has been proven helpful in reducing the amount of rockets fired at Israeli civillans[1]. I'll repeat the above question, what's your solution? [1] Number of rockets fired from Gaza Strip to Israel over time; a similar operation took place in December 2008 http://sonoflaser.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/%D7%A9%D7%99%D7%92%D7%95%D7%A8%D7%99%D7%9D.jpg http://sonoflaser.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/%D7%A9%D7%9...
- AtlasLion 14y ago
  So you see it an acceptable to slaughter 1,417 Palestinians, for the "feeling" of safety of Israelis. Palestinians on the other hand, shouldn't expect any safety or dignity. And again, read this book if you really are thinking about a solution. http://mikopeled.com/category/the-generals-son-by-miko-peled/ http://mikopeled.com/category/the-generals-son-by-miko-peled...
  - yonilevy 14y ago
    Had you asked about the death of ~500 Palestinian civillians and ~700 Hamas members in exchange for the improved safety of Israelis under the given conditions, my answer would be yes. I can't really explain it over HN comments though. I've skimmed through the page linked, couldn't find anything relevant to the current situation. I might read further, thanks for sharing.
- pyre 14y ago
  > I'll repeat the above question, what's your solution? Responses like this are not aimed to be constructive, but to put a stop to reasonable discussion. If I see that the current strategy is ineffective, I'm not allowed to say so until I have a fully-formed solution that is better? It's better to relentlessly pursue a course of action that is ineffective and has a significant cost in human lives, because 'we' can't think of anything better to do?
  - oelewapperke 14y ago
    How about we take the declaration of human rights solution. As soon as one side in the conflict uses non-clearly marked military bases and/or forces, the other side gains the right to fire on civilians if they suspect (not: can prove) that there are disguised combatants and/or military equipment near them. Does that sound reasonable ? If Israel stops fighting today, tomorrow the holocaust restarts. If Palestine stops fighting today, tomorrow we have peace.
  - yonilevy 14y ago
    I didn't mean to stop the discussion, I'm simply trying to understand your point of view (I might learn something). Do you think Israel should sit idly by while the 25K citizens of Sderot can hardly live their lives?
    - kamaal 14y ago
      They absolutely can't. Yes, you are right. The alternatives? Two state solution needs to go ahead. But Israel seems to be in full steam to stop the current UN bid. At the same time they don't want a one state solution either(Which more or less is sort of inevitable now). Their neighbors don't love them much. No matter who they are, the rulers of those nations might, out of force. And that more or less is only to save their seats. But Arab spring has proven nothing is permanent. Egypt only looked super pro Israel under Mubarak and now is super pro Palestine just months after. Absolutely the worst sort of geographical location to be and form your nation. Unless you want to be in a perpetual state of war, crisis and fighting. Yes Israel seems to have an upper hand in military wise currently, but as I said what is permanent? But Israel was not formed to be in an infinite state of war, but for Jews around the world to live in peace and without fear. A big deadlock situation, dominated by massive distrust between both parties.

AtlasLion 14y ago

sorry, but when you look at civilian death rate and compare both sides the story is very different. whatever measures the IDF claims it is taking, it clearly isn't working. Edit: As for a solution, read "the General's Son" by Miko Peled. The Son of an Israeli General http://mikopeled.com/category/the-generals-son-by-miko-peled/ http://mikopeled.com/category/the-generals-son-by-miko-peled...

aes256 14y ago
> sorry, but when you look at civilian death rate and compare both sides the story is very different. whatever measures the IDF claims it is taking, it clearly isn't working. In what sense is it not working? According to the latest figures, more than 500 targets have been hit, with 19 combatants and 10 civilians killed. In most comparable conflicts, the number of civilian casualties far outnumbers the number of combatant casualties.

kamaal 14y ago

Both the parties are to blame here. Killings can't be justified no matter who does it. Its has to stop, terrorizing civilians in large cities is as much a cowardly act as much sending F-16s to bomb a helpless crowd.

maratd 14y ago
I found a problem with your argument. Nobody is sending F-16s to bomb "helpless crowds". Only rocket launching sites.
- kamaal 14y ago
  And that kills kids, and UN inspectors and civilians. And of course these rocket launchers are wrong too, needless to say their rockets kill kids and civilians too.
  - maratd 14y ago
    Ok, we're moving somewhere. If the F-16s didn't exist, the rockets would still kill all those children. But if the rockets didn't exist, the F-16s wouldn't kill any children! I think we just figured out the solution to the conflict!
    - mkr-hn 14y ago
      > use ROCKET on F-16
      - maratd 14y ago
        That works too.
    - guelo 14y ago
      Although you never hear about it in most Western media Gaza militants also claim their attacks are responses to IDF attacks. The current escalation started when IDF killed a mentally challenged man and than a kid in an incursion a week ago. You can read about the tit for tats that have been going on here http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/how-israel-shattered-gaza-truce-leading-escalating-death-and-tragedy-timeline http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/how-israel-... To always blame the Gaza side as the aggressors and as terrorists is just to swallow IDF propaganda whole and uncritically. Did you know that before this current escalation Israel had struck Gaza hundred of times this year and killed 312 people including 61 kids, http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/11/15/bodies-for-ballots.html http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/11/15/bodies-for-... Who are the real terrorists? Oh, and it just so happens that there's an Israel election coming up.

anthonyb 14y ago

> Still they are rather humane Er, what? Go and look up the history of Irgun and Lehi. Israel is just as bad as anyone else in the conflict. Back in the 30s and 40s they were blowing up buses and shooting civilians every day: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Irgun_attacks http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Irgun_attacks Israel and Egypt continue to blockade medicine and food into Palestine, and restrict how people can move (bear in mind that there's basically no work in Palestine). How is that not deliberately targeting civilians? http://www.ipsnews.net/2010/07/mideast-israel-chokes-gaza-despite-announced-easing/ http://www.ipsnews.net/2010/07/mideast-israel-chokes-gaza-de... If you want to see what a solution looks like, just look at Northern Ireland. No aid blockades there...

aes256 14y ago
> Er, what? Go and look up the history of Irgun and Lehi. What do the actions of dissidents 70 years ago have to do with classifying current Israeli government policy as rather humane? You could spend the rest of your life investigating past wrongs on both side of this conflict, and you aren't going to get anywhere. > No aid blockades there... There is no aid blockade in Gaza either?
- anthonyb 14y ago
  Because the attitude of Israel hasn't changed: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_David_Hotel_bombing#60th_anniversary_controversy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_David_Hotel_bombing#60th_a... The UN and the BBC disagree with you on the blockade: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5122404.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5122404.stm
  - aes256 14y ago
    > Because the attitude of Israel hasn't changed An utterly preposterous generalization. > The UN and the BBC disagree with you on the blockade No they don't. You referred to an 'aid blockade'. Legitimate aid flows freely into the Gaza Strip.