6 ms·

IE8 Blacklist: forcing standards rendering opt-in

17 points by danw 18y ago

tdavis 18y ago
sigh I remember lobbying for this change along with many others when we did it in the first place. Then I was completely shocked when Microsoft actually listened. Now I am completely unsurprised and depressed by their latest flip-flop (MSFT has a history of depressing me, which is why it isn't surprising). The way to move the web forward is obviously to take 2 steps forward and 1.5 steps back, right? Right?!
CalmQuiet 18y ago
So microsoft would still like to operate as if it could rule the web the way it rules operating systems?: by fiat. And responds to outrage and outcries by tweaking its fiats? Firefox, Google Chrome, and even Apple cannot help but be pleased at the continued MSIE machinations to abuse power.
lisp_padawan 18y ago
this is getting beyond belief, so I'm going to have to support the flaky weird rendering quirks of IE6 (since so many people still use it), IE7, IE7 Compatibility Mode (which seemingly isn't actually compaitible) AND IE8!? And that's hoping that IE8 'standards' mode is reliable enough to lump in with all the real browsers (mozilla,webkit,opera,etc). Here's a fucking idea to help booster the economy - how about MAKING people upgrade from IE6. BOOM! Hundreds of thousands of web developer (wo)man-hours saved, increasing efficiency across the whole web-based IT sector.
- gabrielroth 18y ago
  > Here's a fucking idea to help booster the economy - how about MAKING people upgrade from IE6. BOOM! Hundreds of thousands of web developer (wo)man-hours saved, increasing efficiency across the whole web-based IT sector. Under normal circumstances that might be a good idea. But given the output gap in the economy, the last thing we need would be less work for web developers. If the government wants to stimulate the web-design sector, it should introduce a hundred new rendering engines, each with a slightly different interpretation of the CSS specs, and then give out grants to businesses to make their sites compatible.
  - lisp_padawan 18y ago
    ah yes, I see what you mean, didn't fully think it through did I? - I was kind of hoping that all those suddenly free programmer hours would be funnelled into creative programming and start-up ventures, boosting the economy sans government spending...
    - Xichekolas 18y ago
      Another interesting example of the those who view job retention as the means to economic stimulus versus those who view job creation as the prefered means to that end. I tend to agree with you. Funding make-work projects benefit the workers involved (and tangentially the businesses they buy from), but innovating and spawning whole new companies/industries seems like a better use of our time and effort.
- deleted 18y ago
  [deleted]
briansmith 18y ago
Include "X-UA-Compatible: IE=edge" in your responses and you will never have to worry about this issue. It is easier than complaining about it.
halo 18y ago
I think people moan too much. This is a reasonable compromise where most sites will continue to render in standards mode (which is a good thing for web standards) while older sites largely continue to work in IE8 (which is good for browser uptake, users and developers of older sites). You can't please everybody all of the time, but this is the best solution I can think of. Is the alternative that older sites are broken out of the box with IE8 and users actively avoiding it because many sites don't magically work in IE8 somehow better? Rather than forcing every site to switch, only /a tiny minority/ of sites will be caught in the crossfire and be forced into IE7 mode incorrectly, and those who are can remedy this relatively easily whether via the HTML5 Doctype switch, a META tag, IE8 header tag or even contacting Microsoft to get it fixed. Instead of requiring /every site/ to it, we're talking about an utter minority of sites accidentally getting broken in exchange for it fixing a large proportion of problems.
- thwarted 18y ago
  What is to keep an organized attack on a site's display method in IE8 by overuse of the 'compatibility mode' button when it's not appropriate? Especially since tech-un-savvy users will then see a site in compatibility mode when they didn't do anything in their browser, and they'll assume the site is busted? Also, at which point do we stop assuming the majority of users are not tech-savvy? How much longer do they have to catch up? Everyone knows which hole the food goes in, no one makes special easy-to-eat food for the food-un-savvy crowd.
Hexstream 18y ago
"This list updates automatically, and helps users who aren't web-savvy have a better experience with web sites that aren't yet IE8-ready." What nonsense. It's IE8 that should be web-ready, not the other way around. That's pretty legendary arrogance right there.

17 points by danw 18y ago

sigh I remember lobbying for this change along with many others when we did it in the first place. Then I was completely shocked when Microsoft actually listened. Now I am completely unsurprised and depressed by their latest flip-flop (MSFT has a history of depressing me, which is why it isn't surprising). The way to move the web forward is obviously to take 2 steps forward and 1.5 steps back, right? Right?!

CalmQuiet 18y ago

So microsoft would still like to operate as if it could rule the web the way it rules operating systems?: by fiat. And responds to outrage and outcries by tweaking its fiats? Firefox, Google Chrome, and even Apple cannot help but be pleased at the continued MSIE machinations to abuse power.

lisp_padawan 18y ago

this is getting beyond belief, so I'm going to have to support the flaky weird rendering quirks of IE6 (since so many people still use it), IE7, IE7 Compatibility Mode (which seemingly isn't actually compaitible) AND IE8!? And that's hoping that IE8 'standards' mode is reliable enough to lump in with all the real browsers (mozilla,webkit,opera,etc). Here's a fucking idea to help booster the economy - how about MAKING people upgrade from IE6. BOOM! Hundreds of thousands of web developer (wo)man-hours saved, increasing efficiency across the whole web-based IT sector.

gabrielroth 18y ago
> Here's a fucking idea to help booster the economy - how about MAKING people upgrade from IE6. BOOM! Hundreds of thousands of web developer (wo)man-hours saved, increasing efficiency across the whole web-based IT sector. Under normal circumstances that might be a good idea. But given the output gap in the economy, the last thing we need would be less work for web developers. If the government wants to stimulate the web-design sector, it should introduce a hundred new rendering engines, each with a slightly different interpretation of the CSS specs, and then give out grants to businesses to make their sites compatible.
- lisp_padawan 18y ago
  ah yes, I see what you mean, didn't fully think it through did I? - I was kind of hoping that all those suddenly free programmer hours would be funnelled into creative programming and start-up ventures, boosting the economy sans government spending...
  - Xichekolas 18y ago
    Another interesting example of the those who view job retention as the means to economic stimulus versus those who view job creation as the prefered means to that end. I tend to agree with you. Funding make-work projects benefit the workers involved (and tangentially the businesses they buy from), but innovating and spawning whole new companies/industries seems like a better use of our time and effort.
deleted 18y ago
[deleted]

briansmith 18y ago

Include "X-UA-Compatible: IE=edge" in your responses and you will never have to worry about this issue. It is easier than complaining about it.

halo 18y ago

I think people moan too much. This is a reasonable compromise where most sites will continue to render in standards mode (which is a good thing for web standards) while older sites largely continue to work in IE8 (which is good for browser uptake, users and developers of older sites). You can't please everybody all of the time, but this is the best solution I can think of. Is the alternative that older sites are broken out of the box with IE8 and users actively avoiding it because many sites don't magically work in IE8 somehow better? Rather than forcing every site to switch, only /a tiny minority/ of sites will be caught in the crossfire and be forced into IE7 mode incorrectly, and those who are can remedy this relatively easily whether via the HTML5 Doctype switch, a META tag, IE8 header tag or even contacting Microsoft to get it fixed. Instead of requiring /every site/ to it, we're talking about an utter minority of sites accidentally getting broken in exchange for it fixing a large proportion of problems.

thwarted 18y ago
What is to keep an organized attack on a site's display method in IE8 by overuse of the 'compatibility mode' button when it's not appropriate? Especially since tech-un-savvy users will then see a site in compatibility mode when they didn't do anything in their browser, and they'll assume the site is busted? Also, at which point do we stop assuming the majority of users are not tech-savvy? How much longer do they have to catch up? Everyone knows which hole the food goes in, no one makes special easy-to-eat food for the food-un-savvy crowd.

Hexstream 18y ago

"This list updates automatically, and helps users who aren't web-savvy have a better experience with web sites that aren't yet IE8-ready." What nonsense. It's IE8 that should be web-ready, not the other way around. That's pretty legendary arrogance right there.