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There's an angle everyone misses. Mandatory age surveillance everywhere is only going to result in massive, normalized ID fraud. You thought fake and stolen ID

• dylan604 6mo ago
  Not so sure about that. Handing an ID to a bouncer at a bar or similar is not logging anything. Mainly it's some big man that you can see gears turning to see if the date is correct and a cursory glance to see if the photo matches. Sophisticated places might have a scanner that does what ever validation it does, but again, it's just another cursory check of the photo. Most of these people really don't care. A tech company doing scans for validation could actually connect to a state database to verify the ID is legit and is not already being used for a different account. It would then be saved. I don't think real world vs tech world usage of fake IDs are the same at all.
  • chimeracoder 6mo ago
    > Not so sure about that. Handing an ID to a bouncer at a bar or similar is not logging anything. > Sophisticated places might have a scanner that does what ever validation it does, but again, it's just another cursory check of the photo. Many/most bars do scan IDs now. Ostensibly it's to verify that it's real, but they do use those systems to keep a log of everyone who enters.
    • basisword 6mo ago
      They also use them to flag people who've been previously banned and the systems work across venues. The idea that verification in the real world is cursory is not accurate.
      • dylan604 6mo ago
        The vast majority of places I frequent do not even have a person at the door checking IDs. If the bar tender/server thinks you look young, they ask for ID. I clearly do not look to be too young, so there's that. The last place I went to with an actual scanner was more of a nightclub that had a cover charge.
        • unselect5917 6mo ago
          Anecdotal evidence is weak (not) evidence.
          • dylan604 6mo ago
            sure, but it is what it is. the places with scanners may be more sophisticated than i give them credit, but you cannot deny there are places that do not card every person every time you visit. online places will never not know it was you. if you cannot see the differences, then you're just deliberately being obstinate about it
          • abustamam 6mo ago
            This is true but your orignal reply was also anecdotal.
        • RajT88 6mo ago
          There's a fine line between night clubs and bars (and a venue can operate as both, depending on the night). Functioning as a bar where people come in, drink and eat - generally not checking ID's at the door. Functioning as a night club, generally checking ID's at the door. Almost no places I've been to scan ID's. I'm also middle aged and not going to night clubs hardly ever. Pretty much just a couple concerts a year in the big city. Those venues scan ID's.
  • schnitzelstoat 6mo ago
    The tech companies care even less than the bouncers do. They just want a plausible defence should it ever end up in court.
    • deleted 6mo ago
      [deleted]
    • dylan604 6mo ago
      tech companies care even less? how do you arrive to that conclusion? tech companies log/store EVERYTHING. this would be an absolute boon for them to be able unequivocally assign to you all of the data they track about you. suddenly, anonymous analytics become identified data and not just deanonymized data.
      • beloch 6mo ago
        Logs of location data on people are already worth real money. The FBI has admitted to buying it. The companies that do age verification will absolutely be selling that data unless there are severe penalties for doing so, and what are the odds that the U.S. government passes a law making it illegal for the FBI to buy data? That's bad enough if you're a U.S. citizen. If you're a non-U.S. citizen, now you're in the situation where all these U.S. social media sites are collecting personal information from you and reselling it, but you have no legal protection unless your government risks tariffs and invasion threats to pass legislation against it, which the U.S. will probably ignore anyways. This might just be the impetus that finally drives enough users to non-U.S. social media platforms to get the snowball rolling downhill.
        • dylan604 6mo ago
          > This might just be the impetus that finally drives enough users to non-U.S. social media platforms to get the snowball rolling downhill. I guess, but like, who? During the time TikTok was not available on an app store (even though the service wasn't stopped), people were trying some of the other Chinese apps, and they were not very compelling as the exodus never happened.
  • dpark 6mo ago
    How does a tech company calling into a government database to verify your identity maintain your anonymity?
    • atmavatar 6mo ago
      It does the opposite: allowing the government to track your online activity as a side-effect of site owners' validating your ID every time you visit. That's the point, and it's a big part of why opposing online age verification is a hill to die on.
      • dpark 6mo ago
        My mistake. My question was rhetorical but I thought this whole thread was rooted in the parallel conversation about anonymous credentials systems.
  • aqme28 6mo ago
    Well then it’s a good thing my fake id is from a state or foreign government without a checkable database
  • unselect5917 6mo ago
    >Not so sure about that. Handing an ID to a bouncer at a bar or similar is not logging anything. Mainly it's some big man that you can see gears turning to see if the date is correct and a cursory glance to see if the photo matches. Sophisticated places might have a scanner that does what ever validation it does, but again, it's just another cursory check of the photo. Most of these people really don't care. Not necessarily true. There's a local stripclub that scans and saves the scan to fight chargebacks and the like. It is definitely logging stuff. They've told me that they were going through the logs once and the bartender ended up googling my fullname. We're cool and I didn't care, but this what you said is not a blanket true statement. I trust a physical business that I can visit far more than some ID verification company that is going to get hacked at some point.
    • stavros 6mo ago
      I've seen this before in London too in some venues. They have full-on computers that scan your passport and take your photo, for the express purpose of storing this info.
    • tekknik 6mo ago
      why would you trust a physical location who typically wouldn’t have a robust architecture or any opsec but not trust an online first business that likely has opsec and monitoring?
  • pdntspa 6mo ago
    > Handing an ID to a bouncer at a bar or similar is not logging anything. Some of the bars in the party areas of my college town have a digital scanner they hold the ID up against, and they even had a screen showing a scrolling Wall of Shame of fake IDs. And they had this like 20 years ago. So I would not necessarily agree with you here
• Hikikomori 6mo ago
  Plenty European countries have eID without these issues.
  • laserbeam 6mo ago
    You use eID when explicitly interacting with a govt entity or bank or otherwise similar institution because you have to and want to prove who you are. Yes, I do want to prove who I am when I file taxes, vote or want to start a business... You don't use it when just browsing randomly on the internet. You don't use it to buy games on steam. Your computer isn't forced to store it because a law arbitrarily says so.
    • SiempreViernes 6mo ago
      I usually buy games on steam using a process that does involve my bank, do they actually take bitcoin or cash posted in an envelope?
    • Hikikomori 6mo ago
      I don't disagree with random browsing. I do use it to buy games on steam as any online purchase on my card uses it. And my computer doesn't store it, my phone does.
    • barbazoo 6mo ago
      Why not, seems to be made exactly for this purpose if you look at the "‘Age over 18’: true" flag. What's bad about that solution? > The technical solution for an EU age verification app is privacy-preserving, open source and user-friendly. > First, the user downloads the app onto their phone and sets it up by certifying their age. This can be done with a biometric passport/ID card, a national eID (e.g. national ID Card or other electronic identification mean), a pre-installed third-party app (e.g. a banking app), or in person (e.g. at the post office). Only the information confirming that the user is over the age will be saved in the app. No name, no birthday, or any other data is saved. > After completing this step, the communication between the app and the provider certifying the user’s age (e.g. eID, third-party app) ends. No further data is exchanged. > The app is then ready to be used online. When an online platform asks to verify the user’s age, the user can use the app to communicate they are over a certain age (e.g. ‘Age over 18’: true) to the platform. https://digital-strategy.ec.europa.eu/en/faqs/eu-age-verification-solution https://digital-strategy.ec.europa.eu/en/faqs/eu-age-verific...
• scotty79 6mo ago
  ID system should be based on commercial bank. If you need to prove your identity or whatever about yourself just tell them to ask your bank and bank will ask you which information about yourself you are willing to share with whoever requested to confirm something about you. When ID is tied to your bank account you guard it like you guard your bank account. Because it is the same thing. This will drastically lower the incentives to "share" your identity with anyone. What's more this system is already operational in many countries.
  • numpad0 6mo ago
    That's just feudalism with less extra steps
    • cassepipe 6mo ago
      From what I know about feudalism, this is a non-obvious statement. Care to develop ?
      • numpad0 6mo ago
        The proposed system moves sources of identity from the nation to private banks under it. So banks own people. Propose a financial regulation to the national congress/parliament and you stop existing, digitally or potentially physically as well. That's feudalism. Or Chinese struggles-of-nations warlord era situation which is often grouped up into that concept as close enough things.
        • TFNA 6mo ago
          Banks can be state-owned as well as private. Moreover, some countries have a particular bank that serves all citizens, even if they would not be able to bank elsewhere.
          • tardedmeme 6mo ago
            are they state-owned? Which American bank is required to serve everyone, regardless of nationality or other factors?
• techblueberry 6mo ago
  I think we should go a step further and log every activity a person takes the blockchains. There will be no ID theft because your DNA will be used to cryptographically authenticate your user.
  • cootsnuck 6mo ago
    Sam, we're not going to use your weird eye scanning orb.
• mianos 6mo ago
  Like prohibition and the overtaxing of cigarettes in Australia, ID fraud will just become criminalised and the government will lose all control. There are pros and cons to this.
• raxxorraxor 6mo ago
  It would be a good market, I would like to pay for an ID in my or compatible countries. As far as the systems work that I have seen, this is more or less a permanent pass. But the real problem is that governments again try to censor online content, nothing else. My country doesn't even run children's homes without many incidents and nobody cares for that. But it tries to track citizens through things like corona apps. It cannot propose any trusted entity that could verify and ID information about me.