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> When we buy an Android device, we should be able to install an alternative OS That's not freedom for the world. That's freedom for you and ten people. The

• palata 6mo ago
  Only because you don't know what those alternatives are. I can take a random person in the street, show them my /e/OS or GrapheneOS phone and ask them what it is running. They will 100% say Android. I can ask them to use it for 10min (write messages, open the browser, swipe TikTok) and they will never realise that it is not running "the Android signed by Google". It is so, so close to the Android signed by Google that it's not worth "improving" the Android signed by Google! If you want to remove the power of Google over Android, just use one of those alternatives and the problem is solved. The pain points with those alternatives are what we need to fight. And really it's just a few small things that need to be regulated.
  • fooqux 6mo ago
    This is an idealism vs realism fight. You're both right in that you're both fighting for the end user to have ultimate control of their device. However, there's a major caveat here. Google's play protect prevents me from using some apps on my phone running graphene. My banking app is one of them. Yes I know there's technical workarounds. Yes I know they have a website (for now). But the point is, this is the direction stuff is moving. Fully signed devices from power-on through the entire stack and a flag that warns software if that breaks. Yes, it's a win for security. But I have zero control. Google has all the keys to all the doors and graphene can't do anything about it. Nor can I. And Google has very little incentive to change this. I fear this is the direction things are moving to. Phones will be tied to our identity. Web will be depreciated as a security risk. Only one of the two options you two are fighting over fixes this: power must be taken from these mega corporations.
    • palata 6mo ago
      > Google's play protect prevents me from using some apps on my phone running graphene. My banking app is one of them. Well, your bank is the one choosing to prevent your from running it on GrapheneOS. That's my whole point again! We need to regulate that: it should be forbidden to ban alternative OSes! Now complaining about the fact that side-loading will require a ONE TIME, "annoying" procedure is not helping this AT ALL. It's just "oh no, I could do it with one click, and now I have to do it in 9 clicks, that's terrible, we need to bring it back to 2 clicks because anyway we won't win if we hope to bring it back to 1 click". I'm exaggerating of course, it is a big problem for e.g. F-Droid (and maybe others?). But my point is that it's just cosmetic, it's not helping the cause. It's not moving us one inch closer to a better world. On the contrary: it's monopolising the attention of policymakers. They already don't understand much, and we flood them with complaints they don't understand (because really, 99.99% of the Android users don't give a shit about side loading, why would the policymakers care?). The solution is simple: make it mandatory to allow alternative OSes (which is pretty much as simple as making it mandatory to unlock/relock the bootloader, and maybe remove a few other barriers that exist just for locking us in) and making it illegal to ban alternative OSes with Play Integrity (which is what banks are doing). That's all. No need to fight every decision Google makes and still lose every single time. We need to get our act together and get the policymakers to do the right thing. But to be fair to the policymakers, technical people on the internet are asking for everything and its contrary.
      • fooqux 6mo ago
        I'd be happy with either approach, frankly. I just think yours is slightly less realistic. > Well, your bank is the one choosing to prevent your from running it on GrapheneOS. That's my whole point again! We need to regulate that: it should be forbidden to ban alternative OSes! The bank isn't banning graphene os. They're banning anything Google labels as untrusted. I think that's an important distinction. This is Google's doing. I don't have the ability to declare "this is my device and I trust it and everything on it" to the banks. And I can see Google's point in that it would be extremely difficult to do this in a way that couldn't be exploited maliciously. Are there ways for the .001 percent of people out there who understand this? Absolutely. But only if our overlords let us and even then we're back to the point that this is only for the people in the know. Which is why I personally don't think enforcing alt OSes will help. We have it now; most people don't know and wouldn't care if they did. Play protect is the same. The amount of people this would impact is beyond minimal. However the problem isn't minimal; this is already a huge problem and it's getting bigger quickly. Giving people the keys won't fix it fast enough, or for enough people. Tech already controls our life and that fact is only getting more worrisome. It's past time for the governments to treat this the same as electricity. Everything standardized, everything regulated, and I can plug whatever the hell I want into it. I don't want to just break free for myself. In order to really make change, my grandma needs to think of her phone like a power outlet. This is a great discussion, by the way.