4 ms·

They failed to mention the important point, that you have to be able to reduce the pressure to increase the grind size. I am convinced the best espresso you can

by sgc 5mo ago

They failed to mention the important point, that you have to be able to reduce the pressure to increase the grind size. I am convinced the best espresso you can make is at 6 bar, since you can grind the coarsest possible. It comes out sweeter and richer at the same time.

criddell 5mo ago
Some people go all the way down to 1 or 2 bars (soup espresso). I've mostly seen it in the context of very light roasts and I tend to buy darker roasts so I really haven't spent much time investigating it. I did see a video on americano's recently where steaming the water to heat it rather than using a kettle or water from the espresso machine's boiler made a better drink. That does intrigue me and I'll probably give it a try this weekend. Lately I've been making mostly decaf and it's really hard to get a good shot no matter what I try. Drip coffee comes out great, but my decaf espresso always seems to have a real harshness. Beans are fresh and my water is good, so I'm thinking it's time to replace the burrs in my grinder.
- zimpenfish 5mo ago
  > steaming the water to heat it rather than using a kettle or water from the espresso machine's boiler made a better drink Was it Mr Hoffmann[0]? He has a decent explanation for why this might be the case too (and does an experiment later which points to it maybe being dissolved gases.) [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0HdzJz_evNw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0HdzJz_evNw
  - criddell 5mo ago
    Yes, that's the video. He doesn't seem to be a fan of americanos. It's one of my favorites so I'm pretty interested in new ideas for one of the most basic drinks.
- sgc 5mo ago
  1-2 bars isn't really espresso, it's a moka - which can be quite good in its own right. It falls into the genus of pressurized brewing though, so same genus different species. There's a no man's land from 3-5 bars that is not really used and might be worth exploring, but most 'standards' consider 6 bar the minimum to be a true espresso.
  - criddell 5mo ago
    The SCAA (Specialty Coffee Association of America) has an even more restrictive definition[1]: > Espresso is a 25–35ml (.85–1.2 ounce [×2 for double]) beverage prepared from 7–9 grams (14–18 grams for a double) of coffee through which clean water of 195°–205°F (90.5°–96.1°C) has been forced at 9–10 atmospheres of pressure, and where the grind of the coffee is such that the brew time is 20–30 seconds. While brewing, the flow of espresso will appear to have the viscosity of warm honey and the resulting beverage will exhibit a thick, dark golden crema. I have no problem with calling soup espresso. It's ground coffee brewed under pressure in an espresso machine and that's good enough for me. [1]:https://sca.coffee/sca-news/25-magazine/issue-3/defining-ever-changing-espresso-25-magazine-issue-3 https://sca.coffee/sca-news/25-magazine/issue-3/defining-eve...
    - sgc 5mo ago
      Of all the standards, I find the SCAA the least useful. That was the standard 30 years ago, but nobody serious about improving their craft is brewing such a watered down espresso anymore, and a 1:2 ratio is the most common one. So 15g for 30ml. And for pressure, modern consensus is that 9 bar is the high upper limit. 10 almost always leads to a harsh cup. I find the 6 bar lower limit to be a tipping point in the concentration, such that lower pressures are more similar to drip than to espresso - the viscosity and mouthfeel changes dramatically. So I can't agree that whatever comes out of an espresso machine should be called espresso. But we are debating vernacular here, I just hope you enjoy your cup of coffee!
roflyear 5mo ago
Well, pressure builds when the coffee bed restricts the flow of water. So if you don't have much restriction (really coarse grind) you're not going to build pressure :) so you don't have to actually change any settings to get a reduced pressure at the puck. But I also do enjoy ~6bar shots using a traditional lever style machine.
- sgc 5mo ago
  Yes of course, but by dropping opv pressure on most home machines that also drops flow due to opv bleed off. If you have your opv at 9-10 bar you get a full flow shot on a coarser grind - which is way too fast. You need to drop pressure until you can keep your wet time the same (I use the pretty standard 17g coffee 34 ml out, 34 seconds wet, upped to 40 seconds because I use preinfusion). If you have a fancier machine you can just adjust flow directly, but then you can set pressure directly so why wouldn't you do that too.

by sgc 5mo ago

criddell 5mo ago

Some people go all the way down to 1 or 2 bars (soup espresso). I've mostly seen it in the context of very light roasts and I tend to buy darker roasts so I really haven't spent much time investigating it. I did see a video on americano's recently where steaming the water to heat it rather than using a kettle or water from the espresso machine's boiler made a better drink. That does intrigue me and I'll probably give it a try this weekend. Lately I've been making mostly decaf and it's really hard to get a good shot no matter what I try. Drip coffee comes out great, but my decaf espresso always seems to have a real harshness. Beans are fresh and my water is good, so I'm thinking it's time to replace the burrs in my grinder.

zimpenfish 5mo ago
> steaming the water to heat it rather than using a kettle or water from the espresso machine's boiler made a better drink Was it Mr Hoffmann[0]? He has a decent explanation for why this might be the case too (and does an experiment later which points to it maybe being dissolved gases.) [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0HdzJz_evNw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0HdzJz_evNw
- criddell 5mo ago
  Yes, that's the video. He doesn't seem to be a fan of americanos. It's one of my favorites so I'm pretty interested in new ideas for one of the most basic drinks.
sgc 5mo ago
1-2 bars isn't really espresso, it's a moka - which can be quite good in its own right. It falls into the genus of pressurized brewing though, so same genus different species. There's a no man's land from 3-5 bars that is not really used and might be worth exploring, but most 'standards' consider 6 bar the minimum to be a true espresso.
- criddell 5mo ago
  The SCAA (Specialty Coffee Association of America) has an even more restrictive definition[1]: > Espresso is a 25–35ml (.85–1.2 ounce [×2 for double]) beverage prepared from 7–9 grams (14–18 grams for a double) of coffee through which clean water of 195°–205°F (90.5°–96.1°C) has been forced at 9–10 atmospheres of pressure, and where the grind of the coffee is such that the brew time is 20–30 seconds. While brewing, the flow of espresso will appear to have the viscosity of warm honey and the resulting beverage will exhibit a thick, dark golden crema. I have no problem with calling soup espresso. It's ground coffee brewed under pressure in an espresso machine and that's good enough for me. [1]:https://sca.coffee/sca-news/25-magazine/issue-3/defining-ever-changing-espresso-25-magazine-issue-3 https://sca.coffee/sca-news/25-magazine/issue-3/defining-eve...
  - sgc 5mo ago
    Of all the standards, I find the SCAA the least useful. That was the standard 30 years ago, but nobody serious about improving their craft is brewing such a watered down espresso anymore, and a 1:2 ratio is the most common one. So 15g for 30ml. And for pressure, modern consensus is that 9 bar is the high upper limit. 10 almost always leads to a harsh cup. I find the 6 bar lower limit to be a tipping point in the concentration, such that lower pressures are more similar to drip than to espresso - the viscosity and mouthfeel changes dramatically. So I can't agree that whatever comes out of an espresso machine should be called espresso. But we are debating vernacular here, I just hope you enjoy your cup of coffee!

roflyear 5mo ago

Well, pressure builds when the coffee bed restricts the flow of water. So if you don't have much restriction (really coarse grind) you're not going to build pressure :) so you don't have to actually change any settings to get a reduced pressure at the puck. But I also do enjoy ~6bar shots using a traditional lever style machine.

sgc 5mo ago
Yes of course, but by dropping opv pressure on most home machines that also drops flow due to opv bleed off. If you have your opv at 9-10 bar you get a full flow shot on a coarser grind - which is way too fast. You need to drop pressure until you can keep your wet time the same (I use the pretty standard 17g coffee 34 ml out, 34 seconds wet, upped to 40 seconds because I use preinfusion). If you have a fancier machine you can just adjust flow directly, but then you can set pressure directly so why wouldn't you do that too.