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The problem with opt-in telemetry is that 95% of users don't change defaults, and the 5% who do are your power users. They're not representative of the average

by jorvi 6mo ago

The problem with opt-in telemetry is that 95% of users don't change defaults, and the 5% who do are your power users. They're not representative of the average user. And only a subset of them will turn it on Ironically enough the opposite happens with opt-out telemetry, for the same reason: a lot of power users will turn off telemetry, thus you will never see their usage patterns and will have to infer them. Dogfooding helps.

crazygringo 6mo ago
I'm confused. You claim power users opt in to telemetry, and then immediately say power users opt out.
- jorvi 6mo ago
  A subset of power users want to their usage to be profiled (me, if I trust the company. Brave, Mozilla, Mullvad, 1Password, Bitwarden, Valve, companies like that). But most power users will not want that because of privacy worries. From that you get two situations. Opt-in: - Regular users: click all 'ok' through setup at lightning speed, no telemetry enabled. - Most power users: consciously don't check the box to opt-in because of privacy worries. - Big picture power users: consciously check the opt-in box given they trust you (because they want their usage patterns to be profiled and optimized for). Opt-out: - Regular users: click all 'ok' through setup at lightning speed, telemetry enabled. - Most power users: consciously check the box to opt-out because of privacy worries. - Big picture power users: consciously don't check the opt-out box given they trust you (because they want their usage patterns to be profiled and optimized for).
- awwaiid 6mo ago
  power users opt in to opt in telemetry, and power users opt out of opt out telemetry. Power users click all the buttons.
pnw_throwaway 6mo ago
The problem with opt-in telemetry is that 95% of users are sick and tired of being spied on with every little thing they do.
- jorvi 6mo ago
  If they really were they would turn it off. And stop using Gmail and Android. The overwhelming majority of people don't care about digital privacy because the cost is opaque to them. Also, telemetry when done right isn't "spying". Again, it is anonymized and used to see, for example, where the hot paths and paper cuts in applications are.
  - hilariously 6mo ago
    And how would I know if you did it right or not?
    - jorvi 6mo ago
      This is called trust.
  - lukewarm707 6mo ago
    i think that in a free society, you should be able to sell the product you want to sell. but, you should give information of what you are selling to the customer. if it has telemetry, then it is a tool the customer buys, that also has the function of listening and reporting to others, how it is being used. you want to sell it - no problem. but tell the customer, "look, this is bugged, and it's going to tell me what you are doing. but it's a great product." anything with opt-out telemetry needs a big version of that warning on the top of the page. personally i am not a buyer. but that's my preference.
    - jorvi 6mo ago
      Again: telemetry isn't "spying" and it isn't "bugging" the application. It collects usage patterns: how often is which button being pressed by which type of user. It is not collecting data on you personally nor is it collecting the actual data you enter.
      - lukewarm707 6mo ago
        go on posthog: https://posthog.com/session-replay https://posthog.com/session-replay "Watch people use your product" - that's their own words! it literally sends you screen capture. and yes, you can id the user and capture inputs. YC 2020. we love to see it.
jonhohle 6mo ago
If Charmin put sensors in toilet paper rolls to optimize the wiping experience, it would be dystopian. Why do we give software a pass? Privacy is a right not a telemetry problem and opt-out by default is non-consensual surveillance.
- lukewarm707 6mo ago
  i think it's not so much non-consensual, it's misrepresentation. it's bugged. the same as a mole in your company. or a sculpture with a listening device in it. tell the user that your thing is bugged!
- cyberrock 6mo ago
  In fairness Charmin is probably backed by millions of dollars of market research on simple user questions like softness, tendency to crumble, size, etc., while free software faces more criticism for issues that are exponentially more difficult to express.
  - jonhohle 6mo ago
    Ok, replace Charmin with a toilet paper startup disrupting the industry. They wouldn’t be given a pass either. Still disgusting. It should probably be noted that if there’s no agreement, collecting telemetry without opt-in probably violates several state and federal laws. Not that these are enforced, but it would be nice if they were.
    - DonHopkins 6mo ago
      >Ok, replace Charmin with a toilet paper startup disrupting the industry. "Move Fast and Break Things" is an ominous motto for a disruptive toilet paper startup. So is "Fake It Till You Make It". "Crowd Sourced Enshittification" is more like it.

by jorvi 6mo ago

crazygringo 6mo ago

I'm confused. You claim power users opt in to telemetry, and then immediately say power users opt out.

jorvi 6mo ago
A subset of power users want to their usage to be profiled (me, if I trust the company. Brave, Mozilla, Mullvad, 1Password, Bitwarden, Valve, companies like that). But most power users will not want that because of privacy worries. From that you get two situations. Opt-in: - Regular users: click all 'ok' through setup at lightning speed, no telemetry enabled. - Most power users: consciously don't check the box to opt-in because of privacy worries. - Big picture power users: consciously check the opt-in box given they trust you (because they want their usage patterns to be profiled and optimized for). Opt-out: - Regular users: click all 'ok' through setup at lightning speed, telemetry enabled. - Most power users: consciously check the box to opt-out because of privacy worries. - Big picture power users: consciously don't check the opt-out box given they trust you (because they want their usage patterns to be profiled and optimized for).
awwaiid 6mo ago
power users opt in to opt in telemetry, and power users opt out of opt out telemetry. Power users click all the buttons.

pnw_throwaway 6mo ago

The problem with opt-in telemetry is that 95% of users are sick and tired of being spied on with every little thing they do.

jorvi 6mo ago
If they really were they would turn it off. And stop using Gmail and Android. The overwhelming majority of people don't care about digital privacy because the cost is opaque to them. Also, telemetry when done right isn't "spying". Again, it is anonymized and used to see, for example, where the hot paths and paper cuts in applications are.
- hilariously 6mo ago
  And how would I know if you did it right or not?
  - jorvi 6mo ago
    This is called trust.
- lukewarm707 6mo ago
  i think that in a free society, you should be able to sell the product you want to sell. but, you should give information of what you are selling to the customer. if it has telemetry, then it is a tool the customer buys, that also has the function of listening and reporting to others, how it is being used. you want to sell it - no problem. but tell the customer, "look, this is bugged, and it's going to tell me what you are doing. but it's a great product." anything with opt-out telemetry needs a big version of that warning on the top of the page. personally i am not a buyer. but that's my preference.
  - jorvi 6mo ago
    Again: telemetry isn't "spying" and it isn't "bugging" the application. It collects usage patterns: how often is which button being pressed by which type of user. It is not collecting data on you personally nor is it collecting the actual data you enter.
    - lukewarm707 6mo ago
      go on posthog: https://posthog.com/session-replay https://posthog.com/session-replay "Watch people use your product" - that's their own words! it literally sends you screen capture. and yes, you can id the user and capture inputs. YC 2020. we love to see it.

jonhohle 6mo ago

If Charmin put sensors in toilet paper rolls to optimize the wiping experience, it would be dystopian. Why do we give software a pass? Privacy is a right not a telemetry problem and opt-out by default is non-consensual surveillance.

lukewarm707 6mo ago
i think it's not so much non-consensual, it's misrepresentation. it's bugged. the same as a mole in your company. or a sculpture with a listening device in it. tell the user that your thing is bugged!
cyberrock 6mo ago
In fairness Charmin is probably backed by millions of dollars of market research on simple user questions like softness, tendency to crumble, size, etc., while free software faces more criticism for issues that are exponentially more difficult to express.
- jonhohle 6mo ago
  Ok, replace Charmin with a toilet paper startup disrupting the industry. They wouldn’t be given a pass either. Still disgusting. It should probably be noted that if there’s no agreement, collecting telemetry without opt-in probably violates several state and federal laws. Not that these are enforced, but it would be nice if they were.
  - DonHopkins 6mo ago
    >Ok, replace Charmin with a toilet paper startup disrupting the industry. "Move Fast and Break Things" is an ominous motto for a disruptive toilet paper startup. So is "Fake It Till You Make It". "Crowd Sourced Enshittification" is more like it.