6 ms·

Unmarked no-fly zones at unannounced times and locations are a remarkable innovation. Hopefully they will tell you when and where you shouldn't have been when t

Unmarked no-fly zones at unannounced times and locations are a remarkable innovation. Hopefully they will tell you when and where you shouldn't have been when they charge you for it, but that may be classified.

helterskelter 6mo ago
Up next, secret interpretations of laws to do things with zero accountability or public overaight. Oh wait we already have that.
- throwaway85825 6mo ago
  And have had that for a while.
solid_fuel 6mo ago
Before you know it, they'll be detaining people without legal representation, shipping them to overseas black sites, and murdering citizens in the street. Oh, wait that's been the entirety of this treasonous administration.
- cindyllm 6mo ago
  [dead]
- t-3 6mo ago
  > Oh, wait that's been the entirety of this treasonous administration. That's been the case for at least 25 years. Still bad, but not new or unique to Trump. I'm too young to have a good idea of what the pre-Patriot Act American military/intelligence/secret police was like, but the historical stuff that comes to light from time to time doesn't lend much confidence that they were all that much better - they just did it illegally and ashamedly whereas now it's quasi-legal and fully acceptable.
  - solid_fuel 6mo ago
    "The authoritarianism is getting worse and more accepted" is not a great response here.
    - t-3 6mo ago
      It's the truth. Would you prefer I lie and tell you everything will be okay after Trump?
      - mindslight 6mo ago
        I'd prefer you join us in condemning it rather than tacitly helping to normalize it. Describing it as some inevitable trend diminishes the focus on those responsible for the latest escalations.
        t-3 6mo ago
        Where did you get the impression I don't condemn it? Acknowledging that it exists and getting worse isn't admitting defeat, unless you're unable to hold ideals with less-than-optimistic prospects. The inevitability of trends is a trick of the mind, not the person pointing out that trends exists. Pretending as if this is something Trump started and that will end with him is much more dangerous, IMO. That ignores the bipartisan consensus among political elites that the common people are to be herded and managed and that liberty and human rights are out-of-date. The problem didn't start with Trump, and it won't end with him if you approach it as a Trump problem.
        mindslight 6mo ago
        Well you didn't condemn it in your comment. I do understand that you were making a normative rather than a positive statement, yes. But I see the same exact kind of normative description from people who then go on to normalize or support Trumpism. > Pretending as if this is something Trump started and that will end with him is much more dangerous ... The problem didn't start with Trump, and it won't end with him if you approach it as a Trump problem. I completely agree with this. > That ignores the bipartisan consensus among political elites that the common people are to be herded and managed and that liberty and human rights are out-of-date While I agree with this as well, I often see similar things from Trump supporters who then use it as license to support accelerationism / nihilism / oppression of others they enjoy / etc. That's what I have a problem with - this shameless tyrant has been channeling widespread frustration with many longstanding problems unacknowledged by the political establishment ("a breath of fresh air!"), but it's only a marketing trick and those exact problematic dynamics are being cranked up to 11. He's certainly honed in on many varied things that are rotting in our society, but rather than doing constructive things to address any of them he's just accelerating the rot while setting himself up as a speedbump to line his own pockets. For reference here I'm a libertarian who was both-sidesing up until 2020 or so. But a critical assumption of both-sidesism is that both parties are similarly bad in magnitude, just with different focuses. And Trumpism is a marked escalation in the blatantly shameless anti-liberty stance of the government.
hn_throwaway_99 6mo ago
Ambiguous laws (which in this case are by definition impossible to comply with) which are capriciously enforced are a hallmark of authoritarian and fascist regimes. Sadly ironic, the US government used to highlight this fact: "Authoritarian regimes’ unclear laws make anyone a suspect" - https://ge.usembassy.gov/authoritarian-regimes-unclear-laws-make-anyone-a-suspect-july-16/ https://ge.usembassy.gov/authoritarian-regimes-unclear-laws-...
- geoduck14 6mo ago
  Of note, the article seems to mention 3 things: 1) Vague laws 2) Arbitrary Enforcement 3) Lack of due process All three seem to be important facts for an Authoritarian Regieme I point this out, because I believe the US has long had vague laws, and our Due Process helps kick out arbitrary enforcement. I also believe that our Checks and Balance system (part of Due Process) is currently broken
  - pigpag 6mo ago
    Given the astronomically high legal cost to individuals, the sheer presence of arbitrary enforcement can already cause a lot of fear and damage.
    - 3eb7988a1663 6mo ago
      There was a recent high profile of a case where a woman in Tennessee was accused of a crime in North Dakota. She spent months in jail, where she lost her car, home, and her dog. She was not even in the right state, and her life was destroyed. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47563384 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47563384
      - _DeadFred_ 6mo ago
        [flagged]
        watwut 6mo ago
duxup 6mo ago
Heck if they do tell you, ICE swaps plates and tries to hide in various ways. The evidence could be just some regular looking vehicle you can't find anything about and it's just "trust me bro those were feds" and you're out of luck.
JumpCrisscross 6mo ago
For whatever it’s worth, I don’t think these rules would stand under the APA. Which means any criminal convictions would be thrown out.
- mathisfun123 6mo ago
  > Which means any criminal convictions would be thrown out. and in the meantime people rot in jail but i guess no harm no foul :shrug:
  - ternaryoperator 6mo ago
    Not to mention the monetary costs of defense
    - defrost 6mo ago
      Against all that it seems miserly to complain about the costs of destroyed, seized, lost drones, equipment, gates, doors et al that will never be reimbursed.
      - mindslight 6mo ago
        It's not miserly, rather it's recognizing the exact line the government steps over when causing harm and then refusing to compensate its victims. This is the longstanding perverse incentive that has led to this specific development, the murders of Pretti/Good/Taylor (et al), "can't beat the ride", forced plea bargaining, and so on. The very idea of sovereign immunity for executive/administrative actions needs to be wholly repudiated.
  - JumpCrisscross 6mo ago
    > in the meantime people rot in jail but i guess no harm no foul Nobody claimed no foul. Constraining a problem isn't the same as saying it's not one.
    - 6mo ago
atoav 6mo ago
Congratulations you found the key to fascism: Create vague laws that could apply to anyone, then you can pick the people who broke it. Of course you try to only pick your enemies. Only: the person in charge of that decision is the meanest, most stupid idiot you have ever met and they envy you for your wife and want to live in your house once you have been dispossessed. The brother of my grandfather was in jail in Germany during WWII because he offended the original Nazis. He said what roughly translates to: "Nazis are all just dumb plebs." And the thing is, he was right.

helterskelter 6mo ago

Up next, secret interpretations of laws to do things with zero accountability or public overaight. Oh wait we already have that.

throwaway85825 6mo ago
And have had that for a while.

solid_fuel 6mo ago

Before you know it, they'll be detaining people without legal representation, shipping them to overseas black sites, and murdering citizens in the street. Oh, wait that's been the entirety of this treasonous administration.

cindyllm 6mo ago
[dead]
t-3 6mo ago
> Oh, wait that's been the entirety of this treasonous administration. That's been the case for at least 25 years. Still bad, but not new or unique to Trump. I'm too young to have a good idea of what the pre-Patriot Act American military/intelligence/secret police was like, but the historical stuff that comes to light from time to time doesn't lend much confidence that they were all that much better - they just did it illegally and ashamedly whereas now it's quasi-legal and fully acceptable.
- solid_fuel 6mo ago
  "The authoritarianism is getting worse and more accepted" is not a great response here.
  - t-3 6mo ago
    It's the truth. Would you prefer I lie and tell you everything will be okay after Trump?
    - mindslight 6mo ago
      I'd prefer you join us in condemning it rather than tacitly helping to normalize it. Describing it as some inevitable trend diminishes the focus on those responsible for the latest escalations.
      - t-3 6mo ago
        Where did you get the impression I don't condemn it? Acknowledging that it exists and getting worse isn't admitting defeat, unless you're unable to hold ideals with less-than-optimistic prospects. The inevitability of trends is a trick of the mind, not the person pointing out that trends exists. Pretending as if this is something Trump started and that will end with him is much more dangerous, IMO. That ignores the bipartisan consensus among political elites that the common people are to be herded and managed and that liberty and human rights are out-of-date. The problem didn't start with Trump, and it won't end with him if you approach it as a Trump problem.
        mindslight 6mo ago
        Well you didn't condemn it in your comment. I do understand that you were making a normative rather than a positive statement, yes. But I see the same exact kind of normative description from people who then go on to normalize or support Trumpism. > Pretending as if this is something Trump started and that will end with him is much more dangerous ... The problem didn't start with Trump, and it won't end with him if you approach it as a Trump problem. I completely agree with this. > That ignores the bipartisan consensus among political elites that the common people are to be herded and managed and that liberty and human rights are out-of-date While I agree with this as well, I often see similar things from Trump supporters who then use it as license to support accelerationism / nihilism / oppression of others they enjoy / etc. That's what I have a problem with - this shameless tyrant has been channeling widespread frustration with many longstanding problems unacknowledged by the political establishment ("a breath of fresh air!"), but it's only a marketing trick and those exact problematic dynamics are being cranked up to 11. He's certainly honed in on many varied things that are rotting in our society, but rather than doing constructive things to address any of them he's just accelerating the rot while setting himself up as a speedbump to line his own pockets. For reference here I'm a libertarian who was both-sidesing up until 2020 or so. But a critical assumption of both-sidesism is that both parties are similarly bad in magnitude, just with different focuses. And Trumpism is a marked escalation in the blatantly shameless anti-liberty stance of the government.

hn_throwaway_99 6mo ago

Ambiguous laws (which in this case are by definition impossible to comply with) which are capriciously enforced are a hallmark of authoritarian and fascist regimes. Sadly ironic, the US government used to highlight this fact: "Authoritarian regimes’ unclear laws make anyone a suspect" - https://ge.usembassy.gov/authoritarian-regimes-unclear-laws-make-anyone-a-suspect-july-16/ https://ge.usembassy.gov/authoritarian-regimes-unclear-laws-...

geoduck14 6mo ago
Of note, the article seems to mention 3 things: 1) Vague laws 2) Arbitrary Enforcement 3) Lack of due process All three seem to be important facts for an Authoritarian Regieme I point this out, because I believe the US has long had vague laws, and our Due Process helps kick out arbitrary enforcement. I also believe that our Checks and Balance system (part of Due Process) is currently broken
- pigpag 6mo ago
  Given the astronomically high legal cost to individuals, the sheer presence of arbitrary enforcement can already cause a lot of fear and damage.
  - 3eb7988a1663 6mo ago
    There was a recent high profile of a case where a woman in Tennessee was accused of a crime in North Dakota. She spent months in jail, where she lost her car, home, and her dog. She was not even in the right state, and her life was destroyed. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47563384 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47563384
    - _DeadFred_ 6mo ago
      [flagged]
      - watwut 6mo ago

duxup 6mo ago

Heck if they do tell you, ICE swaps plates and tries to hide in various ways. The evidence could be just some regular looking vehicle you can't find anything about and it's just "trust me bro those were feds" and you're out of luck.

JumpCrisscross 6mo ago

For whatever it’s worth, I don’t think these rules would stand under the APA. Which means any criminal convictions would be thrown out.

mathisfun123 6mo ago
> Which means any criminal convictions would be thrown out. and in the meantime people rot in jail but i guess no harm no foul :shrug:
- ternaryoperator 6mo ago
  Not to mention the monetary costs of defense
  - defrost 6mo ago
    Against all that it seems miserly to complain about the costs of destroyed, seized, lost drones, equipment, gates, doors et al that will never be reimbursed.
    - mindslight 6mo ago
      It's not miserly, rather it's recognizing the exact line the government steps over when causing harm and then refusing to compensate its victims. This is the longstanding perverse incentive that has led to this specific development, the murders of Pretti/Good/Taylor (et al), "can't beat the ride", forced plea bargaining, and so on. The very idea of sovereign immunity for executive/administrative actions needs to be wholly repudiated.
- JumpCrisscross 6mo ago
  > in the meantime people rot in jail but i guess no harm no foul Nobody claimed no foul. Constraining a problem isn't the same as saying it's not one.
  - 6mo ago

atoav 6mo ago

Congratulations you found the key to fascism: Create vague laws that could apply to anyone, then you can pick the people who broke it. Of course you try to only pick your enemies. Only: the person in charge of that decision is the meanest, most stupid idiot you have ever met and they envy you for your wife and want to live in your house once you have been dispossessed. The brother of my grandfather was in jail in Germany during WWII because he offended the original Nazis. He said what roughly translates to: "Nazis are all just dumb plebs." And the thing is, he was right.