4 ms·

Stiff competition for humans, especially drivers outside the top quartile or so. Waymo appears to its passengers to drive much more competently than certainly a

by Barbing 6mo ago

Stiff competition for humans, especially drivers outside the top quartile or so. Waymo appears to its passengers to drive much more competently than certainly any sub-average rideshare driver. Although I like jobs for humans, I hope these aren’t all just set on fire because there is promise in reducing fatalities. Want to find a way for offline vehicles that can go 65MPH to remain legal though. Without Flock every block either unless we (in USA) forget what the whole USA thing’s about. Edit: @Waymo would LOVE to see an industry-leading privacy pledge so good the EFF slaps their logo on it (even caveated), also your engineers are amazing

georgeburdell 6mo ago
Rideshare drivers can speed
- dcre 6mo ago
  Is that supposed to be good?
  - fainpul 6mo ago
    YES! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fm567YGy5c https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fm567YGy5c
- whatgoodisaroad 6mo ago
  once we've refactored humans out of driving, the speed limits can go way up
  - cucumber3732842 6mo ago
    I don't think so. Engineers design a road for 55. Police say make it 40 for $$ and pretext. Public says make it 60. Karen says make it 30. Politician says they don't care as long as Karen stops screeching, the public doesn't hate them and the police doesn't hate them. End result ->45 Refactoring the humans out would only change a couple of the less influential inputs to that equation. It might actually make it way worse if the public loses interest.
    - Barbing 6mo ago
      Might increase as trust grows. Can’t stop until cross traffic can simultaneously use intersections all at 100 miles an hour with inches to spare
      - cucumber3732842 6mo ago
        >Can’t stop until cross traffic can simultaneously use intersections all at 100 miles an hour with inches to spare Heck I'd just be happy with banked curves.
    - Sohcahtoa82 6mo ago
      > Engineers design a road for 55. Not always. I think a lot of time, speed limits are set based on the expected amount of traffic, not the curvature or the road. For example, I-5 in the Portland area south of the OR-217 interchange has extremely gentle curves. You could take them at 100 mph and not risk losing grip. Yet the limit is 55 mph anyways because that area is expected to have considerable traffic, with traffic merging on and off. The limit is kept low to keep collision speeds low. But if every car was autonomous, that wouldn't be necessary. Autonomous cars can be far more cooperative than human drivers, even without inter-car communication. It's 4 lanes wide. We could let that left lane go 90 mph for the cars that don't need to be exiting any time soon, while the right lane travels slower because cars are either merging on or off. Human drivers suck at this kind of arrangement because we have slow-pokes that think "The limit is just a limit, I don't have to go that fast" and go 5 under the limit in whatever lane they feel like, combined with others that think being overtaken is a personal insult, people that think their lane is a birthright and don't let people merge ("I have to tailgate or else people get in front of me!"), and other toxic human behaviors. Take the human out of the equation, and we can easily go faster than 55.
      - rootusrootus 6mo ago
        > I-5 in the Portland area south of the OR-217 interchange has extremely gentle curves. Not even that, there is one curve on I-5 south of 217, it is otherwise a straight line until you get to Wilsonville (and before then it goes up to 65 mph at the intersection with 205).
  - Zigurd 6mo ago
    Theoretically, fully automated driving doesn't require traffic signals, as much lighting, guard rails, lane width, rumble strips, reflectors, signage, etc.
  - DANmode 6mo ago
    At minimum increased to what they would be if driving was a privilege and not treated as a de facto right, only withheld as a last-resort due to the curse it can be in the US.
    - cindyllm 6mo ago
      [dead]
nickvec 6mo ago
Waymo undoubtedly drives better than your average rideshare driver - I have taken dozens of Waymos in SF and the experience is unmatched. Also no chance of being harassed by the driver, which is a big plus.
- fragmede 6mo ago
  Pick-up, drop off, and routing remain a challenge for Waymo. I hate having to walk a few minutes to get to the Waymo. Not that big a deal usually, but it became a problem when I was on crutches after spraining my ankle. Same for drop-offs, with the caveat that a human driver is going to see that I'm being dropped off in a bad neighborhood and not have me walk a couple blocks and is going to drop me off right outside my destination. Finally, routing. Waymo's take the weirdest routes sometimes. There was one trip I'd swear the Waymo Driver was the digital equivalent of drunk, the route it took was so convoluted. Which is kind of interesting. It means the system can reroute on the fly based on traffic conditions elsewhere and avoid getting jammed up. It's like when Google maps has you take a weird route to somewhere you're familiar, and then you look at traffic and there's an accident it's taking you around. Still a bad experience when a 10 minute ride turns into a 20 minute ride because the Waymo decides to go a weird way. I report these issues in the app whenever I do take a Waymo, so hopefully they'll get better. The one to ride is Zoox though. They have limited deployment but their vehicles have no steering wheel, it's like a gondola ride to your destination.
- anvuong 6mo ago
  This. Also Waymo can be surprisingly aggressive in SF, lane cutting and speeding up when yellow light is on and whatnot. It really feels like being driven by an emotionless highly competent driver, which is exactly what I want. The only gripe I have with it is about dropping off, I can't tell it to move forward a couple of feet to avoid a puddle or to make it easier for me to unload the luggage ...
pkulak 6mo ago
Are Waymos cheaper than hiring a person?
- Kirby64 6mo ago
  Depends on the region, I think. Lyft and Uber partner with them in certain cities, so you transparently are charged the same as a similar ride with a human driver. It's only a better experience than a human driver, though, in my view. No chance of yapping, more privacy, no chance of your driver being a psycho, cars are better maintained.
- walrus01 6mo ago
  It's hard to measure "cheaper" as an end user consumer, the price you pay for the service, because it's very likely they're operating at a loss to gain market share and growth. Exact same reason why Uber and Lyft were considerably cheaper than taxis in many big cities when they first launched (eg: Lyft in Seattle in 2013/2014), running at a loss, and the pricing has now incrementally grown to become the same as, or even more expensive than traditional meter taxis in some places.
  - Barbing 6mo ago
    Great point
- tristanj 6mo ago
  Waymo inflates their prices to be above that of Uber/Lyft because they don't have enough vehicles to meet demand. But their operating costs / mile are lower than that of Uber/Lyft. I'd estimate their internal cost per mile is approx. half that of Uber/Lyft. They pocket the rest because they need to recoup decades of expensive R&D. There is also no reason to compete with Uber/Lyft on price because they are just leaving money on the table. When Waymo first launched, we saw them try to undercut (Waymo was about 20% cheaper than Uber/Lyft) but now it's about 20% more expensive. People are willing to pay extra for Waymo, so why would they charge less? The margin on each Waymo ride is currently very, very high. I don't expect Waymo to cut prices until real competition arrives.
preommr 6mo ago
> I hope these aren’t all just set on fire because there is promise in reducing fatalities. Doesn't matter. At this point, if the US doesn't lead, China will. They have a massive population imbalance that they can only crawl out of with automation. Someone is going to have to drive around all those seniors. Once it's a proven model, it'll spread to the rest of the world.
tgsovlerkhgsel 6mo ago
The one feature that Waymo has over other rideshare apps is that the cars presumably actually show up. With all other apps, it feels like 50% of drivers just sit there waiting for you to cancel. I can't rule out that it's a bug with the app not showing updated locations in some cases (I've had an Uber show up even though the web app showed it three traffic lights away), but "actually gets me where I need to go in a timely manner" is a key feature and when "RIDE AVAILABLE, 3 MINUTES" turns into 7 minutes as soon as the app is done searching for a driver, and that turns into you having to cancel 5 minutes in and try again, the platform becomes useless.
- mmmlinux 6mo ago
  Yes exactly. I loved that when i opened up the app to go some where the first thing I saw before I even put in where I'm going, was how long until ill be picked up. the cars don't care about the trips, not trying to tip/ride max.
- bevr1337 6mo ago
  Waymo cancels cars when they are unable to get to you in a reasonable time. The service will not resend a car automatically, so the user needs to babysit the app until they’re actually in the car. I’ve seen this twice in the last week. In Phoenix and SF we have preferred ride share or taxi when the car showing up is important, like getting to a medical appointment on time.
mmooss 6mo ago
Ironically, Uber used the same tactics to replace taxis with rideshare: (Taxis/rideshares) are dangerous, drivers harass you, etc. Ours are so amazing, people love them. The reality is that I have zero problems with rideshares (or taxis, when I'm someplace that still has them). Being a social animal like other Homo sapiens, interacting is a positive but drivers have no problem giving me peace. I'd much rather have the intelligence and flexibility of a human who can communicate, adapt, and solve problems. > your engineers are amazing They say the same about you!
- Barbing 6mo ago
  Mm, suppose I might indeed prefer the top ~tenth of drivers (or more) on many occasions… recommendations from a screen aren’t the same. Been fun chatting with drivers since the early days for sure, when it was all new-exciting-rideshare talk Def interesting seeing complaints about drivers not showing since early days Uber pax (in SF) loved getting rides to outer neighborhoods without needing to lie about their destination. Offline/human-operated/assisted vehicles could remain in the competitive mix to ensure we don’t get screwed again.
- Barbing 6mo ago
  Final thing “They say the same about you!” Still don’t get it hehe
CobrastanJorji 6mo ago
I don't see why you should prefer jobs for humans. If a robot can do a job as well better and more cheapy than a human, it should, and that goes trebly for any sort of safety-focused job. The right fix is eliminating the need for make-work and not creating more unnecessary jobs. That is, of course, tremendously challenging. It's impractical to look at a job performed by millions and just saying "well fix capitalism" when eliminating the jobs. But it's still the right solution. There shouldn't be gas station attendants, there shouldn't be redundant bureaucratic figuers and managers, and, when possible, there shouldn't be millions of paid car drivers.
- Barbing 6mo ago
  >prefer Ehh, I’ll stick with the original: “I like jobs for humans” Perhaps other pathways to income/wealth accumulation & fulfillment are even better! As it stands I think we could read it as “I like humans“.

by Barbing 6mo ago

georgeburdell 6mo ago

Rideshare drivers can speed

dcre 6mo ago
Is that supposed to be good?
- fainpul 6mo ago
  YES! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fm567YGy5c https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fm567YGy5c
whatgoodisaroad 6mo ago
once we've refactored humans out of driving, the speed limits can go way up
- cucumber3732842 6mo ago
  I don't think so. Engineers design a road for 55. Police say make it 40 for $$ and pretext. Public says make it 60. Karen says make it 30. Politician says they don't care as long as Karen stops screeching, the public doesn't hate them and the police doesn't hate them. End result ->45 Refactoring the humans out would only change a couple of the less influential inputs to that equation. It might actually make it way worse if the public loses interest.
  - Barbing 6mo ago
    Might increase as trust grows. Can’t stop until cross traffic can simultaneously use intersections all at 100 miles an hour with inches to spare
    - cucumber3732842 6mo ago
      >Can’t stop until cross traffic can simultaneously use intersections all at 100 miles an hour with inches to spare Heck I'd just be happy with banked curves.
  - Sohcahtoa82 6mo ago
    > Engineers design a road for 55. Not always. I think a lot of time, speed limits are set based on the expected amount of traffic, not the curvature or the road. For example, I-5 in the Portland area south of the OR-217 interchange has extremely gentle curves. You could take them at 100 mph and not risk losing grip. Yet the limit is 55 mph anyways because that area is expected to have considerable traffic, with traffic merging on and off. The limit is kept low to keep collision speeds low. But if every car was autonomous, that wouldn't be necessary. Autonomous cars can be far more cooperative than human drivers, even without inter-car communication. It's 4 lanes wide. We could let that left lane go 90 mph for the cars that don't need to be exiting any time soon, while the right lane travels slower because cars are either merging on or off. Human drivers suck at this kind of arrangement because we have slow-pokes that think "The limit is just a limit, I don't have to go that fast" and go 5 under the limit in whatever lane they feel like, combined with others that think being overtaken is a personal insult, people that think their lane is a birthright and don't let people merge ("I have to tailgate or else people get in front of me!"), and other toxic human behaviors. Take the human out of the equation, and we can easily go faster than 55.
    - rootusrootus 6mo ago
      > I-5 in the Portland area south of the OR-217 interchange has extremely gentle curves. Not even that, there is one curve on I-5 south of 217, it is otherwise a straight line until you get to Wilsonville (and before then it goes up to 65 mph at the intersection with 205).
- Zigurd 6mo ago
  Theoretically, fully automated driving doesn't require traffic signals, as much lighting, guard rails, lane width, rumble strips, reflectors, signage, etc.
- DANmode 6mo ago
  At minimum increased to what they would be if driving was a privilege and not treated as a de facto right, only withheld as a last-resort due to the curse it can be in the US.
  - cindyllm 6mo ago
    [dead]

nickvec 6mo ago

Waymo undoubtedly drives better than your average rideshare driver - I have taken dozens of Waymos in SF and the experience is unmatched. Also no chance of being harassed by the driver, which is a big plus.

fragmede 6mo ago
Pick-up, drop off, and routing remain a challenge for Waymo. I hate having to walk a few minutes to get to the Waymo. Not that big a deal usually, but it became a problem when I was on crutches after spraining my ankle. Same for drop-offs, with the caveat that a human driver is going to see that I'm being dropped off in a bad neighborhood and not have me walk a couple blocks and is going to drop me off right outside my destination. Finally, routing. Waymo's take the weirdest routes sometimes. There was one trip I'd swear the Waymo Driver was the digital equivalent of drunk, the route it took was so convoluted. Which is kind of interesting. It means the system can reroute on the fly based on traffic conditions elsewhere and avoid getting jammed up. It's like when Google maps has you take a weird route to somewhere you're familiar, and then you look at traffic and there's an accident it's taking you around. Still a bad experience when a 10 minute ride turns into a 20 minute ride because the Waymo decides to go a weird way. I report these issues in the app whenever I do take a Waymo, so hopefully they'll get better. The one to ride is Zoox though. They have limited deployment but their vehicles have no steering wheel, it's like a gondola ride to your destination.
anvuong 6mo ago
This. Also Waymo can be surprisingly aggressive in SF, lane cutting and speeding up when yellow light is on and whatnot. It really feels like being driven by an emotionless highly competent driver, which is exactly what I want. The only gripe I have with it is about dropping off, I can't tell it to move forward a couple of feet to avoid a puddle or to make it easier for me to unload the luggage ...

pkulak 6mo ago

Are Waymos cheaper than hiring a person?

Kirby64 6mo ago
Depends on the region, I think. Lyft and Uber partner with them in certain cities, so you transparently are charged the same as a similar ride with a human driver. It's only a better experience than a human driver, though, in my view. No chance of yapping, more privacy, no chance of your driver being a psycho, cars are better maintained.
walrus01 6mo ago
It's hard to measure "cheaper" as an end user consumer, the price you pay for the service, because it's very likely they're operating at a loss to gain market share and growth. Exact same reason why Uber and Lyft were considerably cheaper than taxis in many big cities when they first launched (eg: Lyft in Seattle in 2013/2014), running at a loss, and the pricing has now incrementally grown to become the same as, or even more expensive than traditional meter taxis in some places.
- Barbing 6mo ago
  Great point
tristanj 6mo ago
Waymo inflates their prices to be above that of Uber/Lyft because they don't have enough vehicles to meet demand. But their operating costs / mile are lower than that of Uber/Lyft. I'd estimate their internal cost per mile is approx. half that of Uber/Lyft. They pocket the rest because they need to recoup decades of expensive R&D. There is also no reason to compete with Uber/Lyft on price because they are just leaving money on the table. When Waymo first launched, we saw them try to undercut (Waymo was about 20% cheaper than Uber/Lyft) but now it's about 20% more expensive. People are willing to pay extra for Waymo, so why would they charge less? The margin on each Waymo ride is currently very, very high. I don't expect Waymo to cut prices until real competition arrives.

preommr 6mo ago

> I hope these aren’t all just set on fire because there is promise in reducing fatalities. Doesn't matter. At this point, if the US doesn't lead, China will. They have a massive population imbalance that they can only crawl out of with automation. Someone is going to have to drive around all those seniors. Once it's a proven model, it'll spread to the rest of the world.

tgsovlerkhgsel 6mo ago

The one feature that Waymo has over other rideshare apps is that the cars presumably actually show up. With all other apps, it feels like 50% of drivers just sit there waiting for you to cancel. I can't rule out that it's a bug with the app not showing updated locations in some cases (I've had an Uber show up even though the web app showed it three traffic lights away), but "actually gets me where I need to go in a timely manner" is a key feature and when "RIDE AVAILABLE, 3 MINUTES" turns into 7 minutes as soon as the app is done searching for a driver, and that turns into you having to cancel 5 minutes in and try again, the platform becomes useless.

mmmlinux 6mo ago
Yes exactly. I loved that when i opened up the app to go some where the first thing I saw before I even put in where I'm going, was how long until ill be picked up. the cars don't care about the trips, not trying to tip/ride max.
bevr1337 6mo ago
Waymo cancels cars when they are unable to get to you in a reasonable time. The service will not resend a car automatically, so the user needs to babysit the app until they’re actually in the car. I’ve seen this twice in the last week. In Phoenix and SF we have preferred ride share or taxi when the car showing up is important, like getting to a medical appointment on time.

mmooss 6mo ago

Ironically, Uber used the same tactics to replace taxis with rideshare: (Taxis/rideshares) are dangerous, drivers harass you, etc. Ours are so amazing, people love them. The reality is that I have zero problems with rideshares (or taxis, when I'm someplace that still has them). Being a social animal like other Homo sapiens, interacting is a positive but drivers have no problem giving me peace. I'd much rather have the intelligence and flexibility of a human who can communicate, adapt, and solve problems. > your engineers are amazing They say the same about you!

Barbing 6mo ago
Mm, suppose I might indeed prefer the top ~tenth of drivers (or more) on many occasions… recommendations from a screen aren’t the same. Been fun chatting with drivers since the early days for sure, when it was all new-exciting-rideshare talk Def interesting seeing complaints about drivers not showing since early days Uber pax (in SF) loved getting rides to outer neighborhoods without needing to lie about their destination. Offline/human-operated/assisted vehicles could remain in the competitive mix to ensure we don’t get screwed again.
Barbing 6mo ago
Final thing “They say the same about you!” Still don’t get it hehe

CobrastanJorji 6mo ago

I don't see why you should prefer jobs for humans. If a robot can do a job as well better and more cheapy than a human, it should, and that goes trebly for any sort of safety-focused job. The right fix is eliminating the need for make-work and not creating more unnecessary jobs. That is, of course, tremendously challenging. It's impractical to look at a job performed by millions and just saying "well fix capitalism" when eliminating the jobs. But it's still the right solution. There shouldn't be gas station attendants, there shouldn't be redundant bureaucratic figuers and managers, and, when possible, there shouldn't be millions of paid car drivers.

Barbing 6mo ago
>prefer Ehh, I’ll stick with the original: “I like jobs for humans” Perhaps other pathways to income/wealth accumulation & fulfillment are even better! As it stands I think we could read it as “I like humans“.