4 ms·

So you moved into a walled garden in an attempt to escape what's essentially a 3 foot picket fenced garden.

by tossit444 5mo ago

randyrand 5mo ago
If you cant beat them join them
- rootusrootus 5mo ago
  If you are stuck in a walled garden either way, might at least try to get the benefits of it.
  - catlikesshrimp 5mo ago
    Includes status symbol and ecosystem lock!
    - pocksuppet 5mo ago
      So does Android, but without the status symbol, the high res screen, or the integration with your laptop.
      - estebank 5mo ago
        I haven't found the need for deeper integration with my laptop beyond what KDE connect is capable of, and my Pixel has a high enough resolution that I can't notice pixels :)
    - rootusrootus 5mo ago
      If it is a status symbol, it really ain't working for me. I must be doing something wrong.
      - wolvoleo 5mo ago
        It depends where. In Spain people use it for that because iPhones are incredibly expensive here compared to the standard of living. What doesn't help is that the SE/e models are also way more expensive than in the US. As a result it's mainly rich people and tourists that own them. Most people use budget android phones, the kind that still come with 3,5mm jacks. You still see wired earphones a lot.
  - orthecreedence 5mo ago
    The iOS app store is like the craigslist personals of online markets. I feel incredibly dirty just going on there. I have to scroll down 3-5 options just to find the exact match for what I searched for, many of the prioritized options being look-alikes that could easily fool people into installing some malware-esque garbage. I love my 13 mini as a phone, but I don't understand how anyone could compare the two app stores and think iOS comes out on top. At least android has f-droid.
    - rootusrootus 5mo ago
      I almost never go to the app store to find an app, but I can understand how that would be really frustrating. Sounds like they need to get serious about curating the app store content. From my perspective, the walled garden value I get is predominantly in the integrations between my phone, macbook, and watch. And to a lesser extent (because it's a bit buggy at times) the family integrations.
      - orthecreedence 5mo ago
        Integrations makes sense, but I'm 100% sold on linux/PCs at this point and I don't care about wearables so my phone is just a phone. Luckily I'm not on the app store much, but if the walled garden is a cesspool already then maybe opening the gates a bit isn't such a bad idea.
- pestat0m 5mo ago
  It's probably worth mentioning that as far as i know this change does not affect AOSP phones[1]. I'm currently living with a Kyocera flip-phone[3] for the past few years. I even got F-droid installed, though it turned out to not work all that great on a flip. I wish more people wrote apps for flips. I keep intending to look into writing my own APK if i ever get the chance. As i understand it, it's a bit like The Wild West, though there are places where you can get flip-phone apps[2] like maps, media players, messengers, etc.. i just never seem to have time to look more into this(and i'm a little concerned about getting scammed). I did manage recently to successfully tether my old touch-phone to my flip for a car trip i took, so i could get data to the touch and run maps(i feel somewhat clever to have sidestepped Big Tech on that issue). Hopefully i'll get some time one day to look more into flip-apps. [1] https://source.android.com/ https://source.android.com/ [2] https://www.apkmirror.com/ https://www.apkmirror.com/ [3] https://www.kyoceramobile.com/rugged-devices/duraxv-extreme-plus#1361858218 https://www.kyoceramobile.com/rugged-devices/duraxv-extreme-...
HWR_14 5mo ago
If there are two walled gardens, you might as well choose the prettier one.
- gslepak 5mo ago
  Or choose freedom. I've been enjoying GrapheneOS for a couple of years now and recommend it.
  - muwtyhg 5mo ago
    Do you run into issues with apps not supporting it? Things like banking or auth? That is the main complaint I see for alternative phone OSes, and I don't know if that has gotten any better.
    - pocksuppet 5mo ago
      My bank detected someone logging in with my password from a GrapheneOS phone and made me change my password and scan my face. That was dumb. With that out of the way, and the device now seemingly authorized, it still doesn't work, because when I log in, the app restarts. That could be a real compatibility problem.
      - ffsm8 5mo ago
        Yeah, I tried that out last year when this whole debacle was announced for the first time. I'm not going back to paying without my phone. So yeah, I'm not going to a free platform either. the choice really is mostly down to Google's Android or iOS - unless you're ready to make sacrifices. If you are... More power to you! I'm not (at this point in my life) right now.
    - AnthonyMouse 5mo ago
      There are essentially two separate issues here. The first is the anti-trust angle. Some subset of bank apps don't work because of attestation and that's a significant barrier to adoption for switching to competitors, so it ought to be an anti-trust violation for the platform to do that. The second is, you try it and discover that your bank doesn't work. If you want it bad enough you can switch banks, and the fact that it doesn't work is a signal that your bank has a weak security team who is just cargo culting deleterious vendor nonsense without evaluating whether it has any real security value. (The use case for attestation is completely orthogonal to bank apps because it can't prevent credential stealing from compromised phones running a fake app since the fake app won't require attestation, and it can't prevent attackers from using stolen credentials to transfer funds because once they have the credentials they can just use a normal phone, and that's the case even if the attestation was completely airtight, which it isn't. Meanwhile the devices that can pass attestation are generally more vulnerable because it implies they're running the more-likely-to-be-outdated OS that came with the device rather than a third party upgrade with more recent patches, so they're essentially encouraging their customers to not upgrade their OS. Banks that do this are wearing clown makeup and you have to ask if you trust them with your money.)
lynndotpy 5mo ago
For an Android user, iOS offers better privacy (which can change at any time), but it also comes baked in with better support for some open protocols. (SMB on Files, and CalDAV/CardDAV for Calendars/Contacts/Notes integration). This has been the case for years, while aspects of the 'walled garden' have eroded over time. It's natural that this huge Android regression might be enough for someone to dip their toes into the other side.
- politelemon 5mo ago
  > iOS offers better privacy No, it markets lockin dressed up as privacy. Convincing you that they are the same thing is the real magic here.
  - lynndotpy 5mo ago
    No, it might sound smart, but it's incorrect to equivocate. You don't need to "lock in" to Apple's services either. Apple has a meaningfully better track record than Google on privacy in many regards. (Apple's Terms of Service is also much better, for not having an arbitration clause anywhere except the Apple credit card, with a very easy opt-out flow.)

So you moved into a walled garden in an attempt to escape what's essentially a 3 foot picket fenced garden.

randyrand 5mo ago

If you cant beat them join them

rootusrootus 5mo ago
If you are stuck in a walled garden either way, might at least try to get the benefits of it.
- catlikesshrimp 5mo ago
  Includes status symbol and ecosystem lock!
  - pocksuppet 5mo ago
    So does Android, but without the status symbol, the high res screen, or the integration with your laptop.
    - estebank 5mo ago
      I haven't found the need for deeper integration with my laptop beyond what KDE connect is capable of, and my Pixel has a high enough resolution that I can't notice pixels :)
  - rootusrootus 5mo ago
    If it is a status symbol, it really ain't working for me. I must be doing something wrong.
    - wolvoleo 5mo ago
      It depends where. In Spain people use it for that because iPhones are incredibly expensive here compared to the standard of living. What doesn't help is that the SE/e models are also way more expensive than in the US. As a result it's mainly rich people and tourists that own them. Most people use budget android phones, the kind that still come with 3,5mm jacks. You still see wired earphones a lot.
- orthecreedence 5mo ago
  The iOS app store is like the craigslist personals of online markets. I feel incredibly dirty just going on there. I have to scroll down 3-5 options just to find the exact match for what I searched for, many of the prioritized options being look-alikes that could easily fool people into installing some malware-esque garbage. I love my 13 mini as a phone, but I don't understand how anyone could compare the two app stores and think iOS comes out on top. At least android has f-droid.
  - rootusrootus 5mo ago
    I almost never go to the app store to find an app, but I can understand how that would be really frustrating. Sounds like they need to get serious about curating the app store content. From my perspective, the walled garden value I get is predominantly in the integrations between my phone, macbook, and watch. And to a lesser extent (because it's a bit buggy at times) the family integrations.
    - orthecreedence 5mo ago
      Integrations makes sense, but I'm 100% sold on linux/PCs at this point and I don't care about wearables so my phone is just a phone. Luckily I'm not on the app store much, but if the walled garden is a cesspool already then maybe opening the gates a bit isn't such a bad idea.
pestat0m 5mo ago
It's probably worth mentioning that as far as i know this change does not affect AOSP phones[1]. I'm currently living with a Kyocera flip-phone[3] for the past few years. I even got F-droid installed, though it turned out to not work all that great on a flip. I wish more people wrote apps for flips. I keep intending to look into writing my own APK if i ever get the chance. As i understand it, it's a bit like The Wild West, though there are places where you can get flip-phone apps[2] like maps, media players, messengers, etc.. i just never seem to have time to look more into this(and i'm a little concerned about getting scammed). I did manage recently to successfully tether my old touch-phone to my flip for a car trip i took, so i could get data to the touch and run maps(i feel somewhat clever to have sidestepped Big Tech on that issue). Hopefully i'll get some time one day to look more into flip-apps. [1] https://source.android.com/ https://source.android.com/ [2] https://www.apkmirror.com/ https://www.apkmirror.com/ [3] https://www.kyoceramobile.com/rugged-devices/duraxv-extreme-plus#1361858218 https://www.kyoceramobile.com/rugged-devices/duraxv-extreme-...

HWR_14 5mo ago

If there are two walled gardens, you might as well choose the prettier one.

gslepak 5mo ago
Or choose freedom. I've been enjoying GrapheneOS for a couple of years now and recommend it.
- muwtyhg 5mo ago
  Do you run into issues with apps not supporting it? Things like banking or auth? That is the main complaint I see for alternative phone OSes, and I don't know if that has gotten any better.
  - pocksuppet 5mo ago
    My bank detected someone logging in with my password from a GrapheneOS phone and made me change my password and scan my face. That was dumb. With that out of the way, and the device now seemingly authorized, it still doesn't work, because when I log in, the app restarts. That could be a real compatibility problem.
    - ffsm8 5mo ago
      Yeah, I tried that out last year when this whole debacle was announced for the first time. I'm not going back to paying without my phone. So yeah, I'm not going to a free platform either. the choice really is mostly down to Google's Android or iOS - unless you're ready to make sacrifices. If you are... More power to you! I'm not (at this point in my life) right now.
  - AnthonyMouse 5mo ago
    There are essentially two separate issues here. The first is the anti-trust angle. Some subset of bank apps don't work because of attestation and that's a significant barrier to adoption for switching to competitors, so it ought to be an anti-trust violation for the platform to do that. The second is, you try it and discover that your bank doesn't work. If you want it bad enough you can switch banks, and the fact that it doesn't work is a signal that your bank has a weak security team who is just cargo culting deleterious vendor nonsense without evaluating whether it has any real security value. (The use case for attestation is completely orthogonal to bank apps because it can't prevent credential stealing from compromised phones running a fake app since the fake app won't require attestation, and it can't prevent attackers from using stolen credentials to transfer funds because once they have the credentials they can just use a normal phone, and that's the case even if the attestation was completely airtight, which it isn't. Meanwhile the devices that can pass attestation are generally more vulnerable because it implies they're running the more-likely-to-be-outdated OS that came with the device rather than a third party upgrade with more recent patches, so they're essentially encouraging their customers to not upgrade their OS. Banks that do this are wearing clown makeup and you have to ask if you trust them with your money.)

lynndotpy 5mo ago

For an Android user, iOS offers better privacy (which can change at any time), but it also comes baked in with better support for some open protocols. (SMB on Files, and CalDAV/CardDAV for Calendars/Contacts/Notes integration). This has been the case for years, while aspects of the 'walled garden' have eroded over time. It's natural that this huge Android regression might be enough for someone to dip their toes into the other side.

politelemon 5mo ago
> iOS offers better privacy No, it markets lockin dressed up as privacy. Convincing you that they are the same thing is the real magic here.
- lynndotpy 5mo ago
  No, it might sound smart, but it's incorrect to equivocate. You don't need to "lock in" to Apple's services either. Apple has a meaningfully better track record than Google on privacy in many regards. (Apple's Terms of Service is also much better, for not having an arbitration clause anywhere except the Apple credit card, with a very easy opt-out flow.)