4 ms·

If they join a religion that isn't on the state approved list, they can't get married there and hard or extra expensive to get buried. There are some limits on

by cma 6mo ago

If they join a religion that isn't on the state approved list, they can't get married there and hard or extra expensive to get buried. There are some limits on religious freedom.

dlubarov 6mo ago
They can just get married abroad. There are even online ceremonies now. A decent number of Israeli Jews have to do that as well, since Israel recognizes Jewish marriages only under orthodox rabbis. Some Israeli Jews are not even considered Jews under strict orthodox rules.
- IAmBroom 6mo ago
  So, not a religiously free state, as OP said.
  - dlubarov 6mo ago
    It's not like it's designed to be discriminatory. In practice it's Jews that are most affected (if they don't conform to strict Orthodox rules), so if anything it's discriminatory against Jews, which wouldn't make much sense. For a much more serious example of lack of religious freedom, we could look to Palestinian law, which only permits Islamic or Christian marriages. Not to mention that selling land to a Jew is high treason.
- cma 6mo ago
  > They can just get married abroad. They don't have to if they are one of the approved religions. That's a restriction on religious freedom. > since Israel recognizes Jewish marriages only under orthodox rabbis I don't get how is this evidence of religious freedom.
  - wolvoleo 6mo ago
    And religion and marriage really shouldn't have anything to do with one another. Atheists can marry too.
    - nkmnz 6mo ago
      They can. It’s called a civil union. Complaining about marriage laws in Israel in this uninformed way is just an antisemite dog whistle.
      - wolvoleo 6mo ago
        A civil union is not the same as a marriage. And I'm not just talking about Israel.
        nkmnz 6mo ago
        Ideally, this is true: marriage = civil union + religion Of course everyone should be free to call their civil union whatever they like and the government shouldn’t differentiate at all if your civil union has a religious blessing as well. Just because some governments appropriated the religious terminology and/or the civil union developed from a union sanctioned by a priest doesn’t mean that a government needs to guarantee everyone a religious marriage. To the contrary. Everyone should be able (and required) to register the civil union if they want to be treated as married by the state. I’m not here to defend the status quo of all the laws in Israel - I’m here to emphasize that your reading of the laws about civil unions and marriages in incomplete and the standards you apply to Israel are a hundred times higher than those you seem to apply to any other country. Honi soit qui mal y pense.
      - cma 6mo ago
        Israel's domestic civil unions have restrictions on interfaith couples, and common-law/reputed spouse outside of that system doesn't grant the same citizenship pathway, though they can become residents. A marriage isn't just a state recognition of a civil union as religious, interfaith marriages between recognized religion and non-recognized have to marry abroad to get the similar rights, with special exclusions on this pathway if the immigrant spouse is from the West Bank or Gaza.
nkmnz 6mo ago
That’s a lie. You can form a civil union, which is very similar to the religious marriage. On the other hand, does Hamas recognise a Jewish marriage?
- ceejayoz 6mo ago
  > You can form a civil union, which is very similar to the religious marriage. Yeah, we tried "separate but equal" here too. > On the other hand, does Hamas recognise a Jewish marriage? Being the good guys is about more than being "second worst".
  - nkmnz 6mo ago
    You might be surprised, but a civil union is the only legally binding form of marriage in many countries, e.g. Germany. The Churches - even though they are state churches - aren’t even allowed to provide a wedding ceremony if the civil union hasn’t been performed beforehand. Which different legal provisions do you think make the „religious marriage“ vs. „civil union“ morally equal to „separate but equal“? > Being the good guys is about more than being "second worst". If you cannot think about any group that’s not as bad as Hamas, but worse than Israel, I‘m happy to help… just ask!
    - ceejayoz 6mo ago
      > You might be surprised, but a civil union is the only legally binding form of marriage in many countries, e.g. Germany. That's great. That's not Israel's setup. > If you cannot think about any group that’s not as bad as Hamas, but worse than Israel, I‘m happy to help… just ask! "Others are worse" is not the moral standard one should aspire to, either.
      - nkmnz 6mo ago
        Israel’s setup is not perfect (and so is the one in Germany), but as long as you cannot show that there is any meaningful legal difference in the eye of the state between a couple that’s married (Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Druze) or in a Civil Union, I cannot see the difference to the system in Germany. I think (not an expert) the system in the UK in the same: you can get married either by the Church of England or by a civil institution - both are valid, both are equal before the law. Edit: just check it, it’s true. “You can choose to have EITHER a religious ceremony OR a civil ceremony if you’re getting married.” [0] So since we’ve established that it’s a common practice in some countries that marriages can be either religious or civil, but still equal before the law, could you please elaborate how exactly civil unions in Israel are discriminated against compared to religious marriages? [0] https://www.gov.uk/marriages-civil-partnerships/plan-your-ceremony https://www.gov.uk/marriages-civil-partnerships/plan-your-ce...

by cma 6mo ago

If they join a religion that isn't on the state approved list, they can't get married there and hard or extra expensive to get buried. There are some limits on religious freedom.

dlubarov 6mo ago

They can just get married abroad. There are even online ceremonies now. A decent number of Israeli Jews have to do that as well, since Israel recognizes Jewish marriages only under orthodox rabbis. Some Israeli Jews are not even considered Jews under strict orthodox rules.

IAmBroom 6mo ago
So, not a religiously free state, as OP said.
- dlubarov 6mo ago
  It's not like it's designed to be discriminatory. In practice it's Jews that are most affected (if they don't conform to strict Orthodox rules), so if anything it's discriminatory against Jews, which wouldn't make much sense. For a much more serious example of lack of religious freedom, we could look to Palestinian law, which only permits Islamic or Christian marriages. Not to mention that selling land to a Jew is high treason.
cma 6mo ago
> They can just get married abroad. They don't have to if they are one of the approved religions. That's a restriction on religious freedom. > since Israel recognizes Jewish marriages only under orthodox rabbis I don't get how is this evidence of religious freedom.
- wolvoleo 6mo ago
  And religion and marriage really shouldn't have anything to do with one another. Atheists can marry too.
  - nkmnz 6mo ago
    They can. It’s called a civil union. Complaining about marriage laws in Israel in this uninformed way is just an antisemite dog whistle.
    - wolvoleo 6mo ago
      A civil union is not the same as a marriage. And I'm not just talking about Israel.
      - nkmnz 6mo ago
        Ideally, this is true: marriage = civil union + religion Of course everyone should be free to call their civil union whatever they like and the government shouldn’t differentiate at all if your civil union has a religious blessing as well. Just because some governments appropriated the religious terminology and/or the civil union developed from a union sanctioned by a priest doesn’t mean that a government needs to guarantee everyone a religious marriage. To the contrary. Everyone should be able (and required) to register the civil union if they want to be treated as married by the state. I’m not here to defend the status quo of all the laws in Israel - I’m here to emphasize that your reading of the laws about civil unions and marriages in incomplete and the standards you apply to Israel are a hundred times higher than those you seem to apply to any other country. Honi soit qui mal y pense.
    - cma 6mo ago
      Israel's domestic civil unions have restrictions on interfaith couples, and common-law/reputed spouse outside of that system doesn't grant the same citizenship pathway, though they can become residents. A marriage isn't just a state recognition of a civil union as religious, interfaith marriages between recognized religion and non-recognized have to marry abroad to get the similar rights, with special exclusions on this pathway if the immigrant spouse is from the West Bank or Gaza.

nkmnz 6mo ago

That’s a lie. You can form a civil union, which is very similar to the religious marriage. On the other hand, does Hamas recognise a Jewish marriage?

ceejayoz 6mo ago
> You can form a civil union, which is very similar to the religious marriage. Yeah, we tried "separate but equal" here too. > On the other hand, does Hamas recognise a Jewish marriage? Being the good guys is about more than being "second worst".
- nkmnz 6mo ago
  You might be surprised, but a civil union is the only legally binding form of marriage in many countries, e.g. Germany. The Churches - even though they are state churches - aren’t even allowed to provide a wedding ceremony if the civil union hasn’t been performed beforehand. Which different legal provisions do you think make the „religious marriage“ vs. „civil union“ morally equal to „separate but equal“? > Being the good guys is about more than being "second worst". If you cannot think about any group that’s not as bad as Hamas, but worse than Israel, I‘m happy to help… just ask!
  - ceejayoz 6mo ago
    > You might be surprised, but a civil union is the only legally binding form of marriage in many countries, e.g. Germany. That's great. That's not Israel's setup. > If you cannot think about any group that’s not as bad as Hamas, but worse than Israel, I‘m happy to help… just ask! "Others are worse" is not the moral standard one should aspire to, either.
    - nkmnz 6mo ago
      Israel’s setup is not perfect (and so is the one in Germany), but as long as you cannot show that there is any meaningful legal difference in the eye of the state between a couple that’s married (Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Druze) or in a Civil Union, I cannot see the difference to the system in Germany. I think (not an expert) the system in the UK in the same: you can get married either by the Church of England or by a civil institution - both are valid, both are equal before the law. Edit: just check it, it’s true. “You can choose to have EITHER a religious ceremony OR a civil ceremony if you’re getting married.” [0] So since we’ve established that it’s a common practice in some countries that marriages can be either religious or civil, but still equal before the law, could you please elaborate how exactly civil unions in Israel are discriminated against compared to religious marriages? [0] https://www.gov.uk/marriages-civil-partnerships/plan-your-ceremony https://www.gov.uk/marriages-civil-partnerships/plan-your-ce...