6 ms·

Virtually all Arabs hate Israel but Arab governments are more varied. The modern Egyptian state is oriented toward close partnership with the US, and a large pa

by slibhb 6mo ago

Virtually all Arabs hate Israel but Arab governments are more varied. The modern Egyptian state is oriented toward close partnership with the US, and a large part of that was peace with Israel post '73. So yes, the UAE could align with both.

nkmnz 6mo ago
[flagged]
- cma 6mo ago
  If they join a religion that isn't on the state approved list, they can't get married there and hard or extra expensive to get buried. There are some limits on religious freedom.
  - dlubarov 6mo ago
    They can just get married abroad. There are even online ceremonies now. A decent number of Israeli Jews have to do that as well, since Israel recognizes Jewish marriages only under orthodox rabbis. Some Israeli Jews are not even considered Jews under strict orthodox rules.
    - IAmBroom 6mo ago
      So, not a religiously free state, as OP said.
      - dlubarov 6mo ago
        It's not like it's designed to be discriminatory. In practice it's Jews that are most affected (if they don't conform to strict Orthodox rules), so if anything it's discriminatory against Jews, which wouldn't make much sense. For a much more serious example of lack of religious freedom, we could look to Palestinian law, which only permits Islamic or Christian marriages. Not to mention that selling land to a Jew is high treason.
    - cma 6mo ago
      > They can just get married abroad. They don't have to if they are one of the approved religions. That's a restriction on religious freedom. > since Israel recognizes Jewish marriages only under orthodox rabbis I don't get how is this evidence of religious freedom.
      - wolvoleo 6mo ago
        And religion and marriage really shouldn't have anything to do with one another. Atheists can marry too.
        nkmnz 6mo ago
        They can. It’s called a civil union. Complaining about marriage laws in Israel in this uninformed way is just an antisemite dog whistle.
        wolvoleo 6mo ago
        A civil union is not the same as a marriage. And I'm not just talking about Israel.
        nkmnz 6mo ago
        Ideally, this is true: marriage = civil union + religion Of course everyone should be free to call their civil union whatever they like and the government shouldn’t differentiate at all if your civil union has a religious blessing as well. Just because some governments appropriated the religious terminology and/or the civil union developed from a union sanctioned by a priest doesn’t mean that a government needs to guarantee everyone a religious marriage. To the contrary. Everyone should be able (and required) to register the civil union if they want to be treated as married by the state. I’m not here to defend the status quo of all the laws in Israel - I’m here to emphasize that your reading of the laws about civil unions and marriages in incomplete and the standards you apply to Israel are a hundred times higher than those you seem to apply to any other country. Honi soit qui mal y pense.
        6mo ago
  - nkmnz 6mo ago
    That’s a lie. You can form a civil union, which is very similar to the religious marriage. On the other hand, does Hamas recognise a Jewish marriage?
    - ceejayoz 6mo ago
      > You can form a civil union, which is very similar to the religious marriage. Yeah, we tried "separate but equal" here too. > On the other hand, does Hamas recognise a Jewish marriage? Being the good guys is about more than being "second worst".
      - nkmnz 6mo ago
        You might be surprised, but a civil union is the only legally binding form of marriage in many countries, e.g. Germany. The Churches - even though they are state churches - aren’t even allowed to provide a wedding ceremony if the civil union hasn’t been performed beforehand. Which different legal provisions do you think make the „religious marriage“ vs. „civil union“ morally equal to „separate but equal“? > Being the good guys is about more than being "second worst". If you cannot think about any group that’s not as bad as Hamas, but worse than Israel, I‘m happy to help… just ask!
        ceejayoz 6mo ago
        > You might be surprised, but a civil union is the only legally binding form of marriage in many countries, e.g. Germany. That's great. That's not Israel's setup. > If you cannot think about any group that’s not as bad as Hamas, but worse than Israel, I‘m happy to help… just ask! "Others are worse" is not the moral standard one should aspire to, either.
        nkmnz 6mo ago
        Israel’s setup is not perfect (and so is the one in Germany), but as long as you cannot show that there is any meaningful legal difference in the eye of the state between a couple that’s married (Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Druze) or in a Civil Union, I cannot see the difference to the system in Germany. I think (not an expert) the system in the UK in the same: you can get married either by the Church of England or by a civil institution - both are valid, both are equal before the law. Edit: just check it, it’s true. “You can choose to have EITHER a religious ceremony OR a civil ceremony if you’re getting married.” [0] So since we’ve established that it’s a common practice in some countries that marriages can be either religious or civil, but still equal before the law, could you please elaborate how exactly civil unions in Israel are discriminated against compared to religious marriages? [0] https://www.gov.uk/marriages-civil-partnerships/plan-your-ceremony https://www.gov.uk/marriages-civil-partnerships/plan-your-ce...
- watwut 6mo ago
  Arabs dont have equal standing and treatment in israel. Also, Israel is increasingly far right and best estimate is less rights in the future.
  - nkmnz 6mo ago
    I agree that we should hold Israel to highest standards (which are, unfortunately, eroded especially by the US, these days). Nevertheless, you should always ask yourselves: would you prefer being an gay Arab in Tel Aviv or a gay Jew in Gaza?
  - perpetualpear 6mo ago
    There are 2 million muslim, mostly arab, citizens who are officially and legally equal to jews. They are distinct from the arabs in Gaza or the west bank, who are not citizens.
    - ceejayoz 6mo ago
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_Penalty_for_Terrorists_Law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_Penalty_for_Terrorists_L... > The law imposes the death penalty on persons convicted of fatal terrorist attacks. In military courts, the death penalty is the "default"; only Palestinians are tried. In civilian courts, both Israelis and Palestinians are tried, but the law applies only to those who "'intentionally cause the death of a person with the aim of denying the existence of the State of Israel'—a definition designed to exclude Jewish terrorists". It therefore "effectively enshrines capital punishment for Palestinians alone". And to preempt the "but that's Palestinians, not Israeli Arabs" bit, nope: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terms_for_Palestinian_citizens_of_Israel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terms_for_Palestinian_citizens... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel lists all sorts of other smaller inequities: > In 2005, the Follow-Up Committee for Arab Education said that the Israeli government spent an average of $192 a year on Arab students compared to $1,100 for Jewish students. > In the 2002 budget, Israel's health ministry allocated Arab communities less than 1% of its 277 m-shekel (£35m) budget (1.6 m shekels {£200,000}) to develop healthcare facilities.
ifwinterco 6mo ago
Various Arab states maintain this balancing act between a virulently anti-Israel population and a US-aligned (in most cases, US-installed) regime that’s tacitly okay with the existence of Israel. It’s actually surprising it’s achievable for so long but in the long term doesn’t feel stable given the direction things are headed
- slibhb 6mo ago
  Which Arab regimes, today, are "US installed"? Iraq is the only plausible answer. As far as stability, I don't know. My view is that Arab democracies are unstable because they will elect Islamists. Dictatorship/monarchy has proven far more stable. Syria is trying to buck the trend; we'll see how it goes.
  - oa335 6mo ago
    > Arab democracies are unstable because they will elect Islamists. why does that imply instability?
    - slibhb 6mo ago
      Fundamentalists tend not to be pragmatists.
      - oa335 6mo ago
        i don't think you know much about islamist parties and are just grasping for reasons to justify suppressing democracy in certain places. ennahada (tunisia), pks (indonesia), jui (pakistan) are all examples of islamist parties that have compromised or reached across the aisle at various points just off the top of my head. besides, isn't the point of democracy to allow people to be led by those who represent their principles? if they are in power, why should the majority expect their elected leaders to compromise those principles?
        JumpCrisscross 6mo ago
shykes 6mo ago
> Virtually all Arabs hate Israel This is true, but Emiratis are a notable exception. The UAE may be the only Arab country where Jews are not only allowed to live, but can do so safely without fearing either their neighbors or their government. For example, last year when a rabbi was murdered, the Emirati government reacted forcefully and made a point to sentence the perpetrators to death. Note, the perpetrators were not Emiratis. > The modern Egyptian state is oriented toward close partnership with the US, and a large part of that was peace with Israel post '73. While also true, the relationship between Israel and Egypt has been tense lately. They are at peace, and the border is stable. And economic integration is tightening, for example with the recent $35B gas deal [1]. So it's plausible that UAE could align with both, as you say. But at the same time, it's just as plausible that this alignment will become increasingly complicated for geopolitical reasons. As Israel grows stronger in the region, Egypt seems to have adopted a strategy of indirectly undermining them. For example, Egypt's handling of the Gaza war has indicated that they were playing a double game - openly containing Hamas, while covertly allowing them to grow stronger. When the IDF captured Rafah in 2024, they uncovered massive smuggling tunnels under the Egypt-Gaza border, which could not possibly have been unknown to Egypt. Sisi is also known for having cracked down on the Muslim Brotherhood domestically, as they were his primary political rival. But externally, he has shown a willingness to support them as a tool to weaken his rivals, including Israel. This is a dangerous game which could easily backfire. One more example: just this week Egypt is conducting a live fire military exercise 100m from the Israel border - a deliberate decision that is escalating tensions. [2] [1] https://www.egyptindependent.com/all-you-need-to-know-about-egypt-and-israel-record-breaking-35-billion-gas-deal/ https://www.egyptindependent.com/all-you-need-to-know-about-... [2] https://defencesecurityasia.com/en/egypt-live-fire-drills-israel-border-october-7-fears-camp-david-security-alarm https://defencesecurityasia.com/en/egypt-live-fire-drills-is...
- myth_drannon 6mo ago
  By the way that's just Qatari propaganda meant to put a wedge between Israel and Egypt. Qatar(Muslim Brotherhood) hates Egypt (that cracked down on MB) and hates Israel. They paid Netanyahu's advisors to push those lies about Egypt's double game and the cross border tunnels. Netanyahu the clown he is, "leaked" those lies to journalists. Qatar also paid Haaretz journalist to push those lies. The current situation with Egypt is good. They need to pretend to be somewhat cold to satisfy the hostile to Israel population, but there is cooperation and good relationship.

by slibhb 6mo ago

nkmnz 6mo ago

[flagged]

cma 6mo ago
If they join a religion that isn't on the state approved list, they can't get married there and hard or extra expensive to get buried. There are some limits on religious freedom.
- dlubarov 6mo ago
  They can just get married abroad. There are even online ceremonies now. A decent number of Israeli Jews have to do that as well, since Israel recognizes Jewish marriages only under orthodox rabbis. Some Israeli Jews are not even considered Jews under strict orthodox rules.
  - IAmBroom 6mo ago
    So, not a religiously free state, as OP said.
    - dlubarov 6mo ago
      It's not like it's designed to be discriminatory. In practice it's Jews that are most affected (if they don't conform to strict Orthodox rules), so if anything it's discriminatory against Jews, which wouldn't make much sense. For a much more serious example of lack of religious freedom, we could look to Palestinian law, which only permits Islamic or Christian marriages. Not to mention that selling land to a Jew is high treason.
  - cma 6mo ago
    > They can just get married abroad. They don't have to if they are one of the approved religions. That's a restriction on religious freedom. > since Israel recognizes Jewish marriages only under orthodox rabbis I don't get how is this evidence of religious freedom.
    - wolvoleo 6mo ago
      And religion and marriage really shouldn't have anything to do with one another. Atheists can marry too.
      - nkmnz 6mo ago
        They can. It’s called a civil union. Complaining about marriage laws in Israel in this uninformed way is just an antisemite dog whistle.
        wolvoleo 6mo ago
        A civil union is not the same as a marriage. And I'm not just talking about Israel.
        nkmnz 6mo ago
        Ideally, this is true: marriage = civil union + religion Of course everyone should be free to call their civil union whatever they like and the government shouldn’t differentiate at all if your civil union has a religious blessing as well. Just because some governments appropriated the religious terminology and/or the civil union developed from a union sanctioned by a priest doesn’t mean that a government needs to guarantee everyone a religious marriage. To the contrary. Everyone should be able (and required) to register the civil union if they want to be treated as married by the state. I’m not here to defend the status quo of all the laws in Israel - I’m here to emphasize that your reading of the laws about civil unions and marriages in incomplete and the standards you apply to Israel are a hundred times higher than those you seem to apply to any other country. Honi soit qui mal y pense.
        6mo ago
- nkmnz 6mo ago
  That’s a lie. You can form a civil union, which is very similar to the religious marriage. On the other hand, does Hamas recognise a Jewish marriage?
  - ceejayoz 6mo ago
    > You can form a civil union, which is very similar to the religious marriage. Yeah, we tried "separate but equal" here too. > On the other hand, does Hamas recognise a Jewish marriage? Being the good guys is about more than being "second worst".
    - nkmnz 6mo ago
      You might be surprised, but a civil union is the only legally binding form of marriage in many countries, e.g. Germany. The Churches - even though they are state churches - aren’t even allowed to provide a wedding ceremony if the civil union hasn’t been performed beforehand. Which different legal provisions do you think make the „religious marriage“ vs. „civil union“ morally equal to „separate but equal“? > Being the good guys is about more than being "second worst". If you cannot think about any group that’s not as bad as Hamas, but worse than Israel, I‘m happy to help… just ask!
      - ceejayoz 6mo ago
        > You might be surprised, but a civil union is the only legally binding form of marriage in many countries, e.g. Germany. That's great. That's not Israel's setup. > If you cannot think about any group that’s not as bad as Hamas, but worse than Israel, I‘m happy to help… just ask! "Others are worse" is not the moral standard one should aspire to, either.
        nkmnz 6mo ago
        Israel’s setup is not perfect (and so is the one in Germany), but as long as you cannot show that there is any meaningful legal difference in the eye of the state between a couple that’s married (Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Druze) or in a Civil Union, I cannot see the difference to the system in Germany. I think (not an expert) the system in the UK in the same: you can get married either by the Church of England or by a civil institution - both are valid, both are equal before the law. Edit: just check it, it’s true. “You can choose to have EITHER a religious ceremony OR a civil ceremony if you’re getting married.” [0] So since we’ve established that it’s a common practice in some countries that marriages can be either religious or civil, but still equal before the law, could you please elaborate how exactly civil unions in Israel are discriminated against compared to religious marriages? [0] https://www.gov.uk/marriages-civil-partnerships/plan-your-ceremony https://www.gov.uk/marriages-civil-partnerships/plan-your-ce...
watwut 6mo ago
Arabs dont have equal standing and treatment in israel. Also, Israel is increasingly far right and best estimate is less rights in the future.
- nkmnz 6mo ago
  I agree that we should hold Israel to highest standards (which are, unfortunately, eroded especially by the US, these days). Nevertheless, you should always ask yourselves: would you prefer being an gay Arab in Tel Aviv or a gay Jew in Gaza?
- perpetualpear 6mo ago
  There are 2 million muslim, mostly arab, citizens who are officially and legally equal to jews. They are distinct from the arabs in Gaza or the west bank, who are not citizens.
  - ceejayoz 6mo ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_Penalty_for_Terrorists_Law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_Penalty_for_Terrorists_L... > The law imposes the death penalty on persons convicted of fatal terrorist attacks. In military courts, the death penalty is the "default"; only Palestinians are tried. In civilian courts, both Israelis and Palestinians are tried, but the law applies only to those who "'intentionally cause the death of a person with the aim of denying the existence of the State of Israel'—a definition designed to exclude Jewish terrorists". It therefore "effectively enshrines capital punishment for Palestinians alone". And to preempt the "but that's Palestinians, not Israeli Arabs" bit, nope: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terms_for_Palestinian_citizens_of_Israel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terms_for_Palestinian_citizens... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel lists all sorts of other smaller inequities: > In 2005, the Follow-Up Committee for Arab Education said that the Israeli government spent an average of $192 a year on Arab students compared to $1,100 for Jewish students. > In the 2002 budget, Israel's health ministry allocated Arab communities less than 1% of its 277 m-shekel (£35m) budget (1.6 m shekels {£200,000}) to develop healthcare facilities.

ifwinterco 6mo ago

Various Arab states maintain this balancing act between a virulently anti-Israel population and a US-aligned (in most cases, US-installed) regime that’s tacitly okay with the existence of Israel. It’s actually surprising it’s achievable for so long but in the long term doesn’t feel stable given the direction things are headed

slibhb 6mo ago
Which Arab regimes, today, are "US installed"? Iraq is the only plausible answer. As far as stability, I don't know. My view is that Arab democracies are unstable because they will elect Islamists. Dictatorship/monarchy has proven far more stable. Syria is trying to buck the trend; we'll see how it goes.
- oa335 6mo ago
  > Arab democracies are unstable because they will elect Islamists. why does that imply instability?
  - slibhb 6mo ago
    Fundamentalists tend not to be pragmatists.
    - oa335 6mo ago
      i don't think you know much about islamist parties and are just grasping for reasons to justify suppressing democracy in certain places. ennahada (tunisia), pks (indonesia), jui (pakistan) are all examples of islamist parties that have compromised or reached across the aisle at various points just off the top of my head. besides, isn't the point of democracy to allow people to be led by those who represent their principles? if they are in power, why should the majority expect their elected leaders to compromise those principles?
      - JumpCrisscross 6mo ago

shykes 6mo ago

> Virtually all Arabs hate Israel This is true, but Emiratis are a notable exception. The UAE may be the only Arab country where Jews are not only allowed to live, but can do so safely without fearing either their neighbors or their government. For example, last year when a rabbi was murdered, the Emirati government reacted forcefully and made a point to sentence the perpetrators to death. Note, the perpetrators were not Emiratis. > The modern Egyptian state is oriented toward close partnership with the US, and a large part of that was peace with Israel post '73. While also true, the relationship between Israel and Egypt has been tense lately. They are at peace, and the border is stable. And economic integration is tightening, for example with the recent $35B gas deal [1]. So it's plausible that UAE could align with both, as you say. But at the same time, it's just as plausible that this alignment will become increasingly complicated for geopolitical reasons. As Israel grows stronger in the region, Egypt seems to have adopted a strategy of indirectly undermining them. For example, Egypt's handling of the Gaza war has indicated that they were playing a double game - openly containing Hamas, while covertly allowing them to grow stronger. When the IDF captured Rafah in 2024, they uncovered massive smuggling tunnels under the Egypt-Gaza border, which could not possibly have been unknown to Egypt. Sisi is also known for having cracked down on the Muslim Brotherhood domestically, as they were his primary political rival. But externally, he has shown a willingness to support them as a tool to weaken his rivals, including Israel. This is a dangerous game which could easily backfire. One more example: just this week Egypt is conducting a live fire military exercise 100m from the Israel border - a deliberate decision that is escalating tensions. [2] [1] https://www.egyptindependent.com/all-you-need-to-know-about-egypt-and-israel-record-breaking-35-billion-gas-deal/ https://www.egyptindependent.com/all-you-need-to-know-about-... [2] https://defencesecurityasia.com/en/egypt-live-fire-drills-israel-border-october-7-fears-camp-david-security-alarm https://defencesecurityasia.com/en/egypt-live-fire-drills-is...

myth_drannon 6mo ago
By the way that's just Qatari propaganda meant to put a wedge between Israel and Egypt. Qatar(Muslim Brotherhood) hates Egypt (that cracked down on MB) and hates Israel. They paid Netanyahu's advisors to push those lies about Egypt's double game and the cross border tunnels. Netanyahu the clown he is, "leaked" those lies to journalists. Qatar also paid Haaretz journalist to push those lies. The current situation with Egypt is good. They need to pretend to be somewhat cold to satisfy the hostile to Israel population, but there is cooperation and good relationship.