6 ms·

Flash charging is 1MW - 1000V, 1000A. That peak power has to be provided by the grid or some energy storage that can be replenished in time for the next cars. W

by close04 6mo ago

Flash charging is 1MW - 1000V, 1000A. That peak power has to be provided by the grid or some energy storage that can be replenished in time for the next cars. We need cheap and smallish batteries (because burying is not always an option) to be able to install that much storage and peak power output in the MW/MWh range all over the place. We'll eventually have this but we might be talking in decades rather than years. Or, why not, maybe we need fewer cars.

danielsamuels 6mo ago
1MW/800V architecture = 1250A
- adrian_b 6mo ago
  The 1 MW chargers installed until now (in China) are 1000 V / 1000 A. So the charging voltage has been increased, to allow a less increase in the charging current. I assume that the car negotiates with the charger the charging voltage and the maximum charging current, and then the charging proceeds at the limits established by the least capable of the two.
maxglute 6mo ago
I think flash charging infra math is: 1500 kWh battery storage + 600kW grid draw + 30kW solar canopy (if weather allows). @10m per car across 2 cables = ~36 cars over 3 hour rush hour throughput (comparable to 2 gas pump) = need ~4000 kWh, 1500 kWh from battery 1800 kWh from grid = 3300 kWh. This worst case all cars 0-97% charge, realistically mixture so 3300 kWh should cover typical peak scenarios. Then midday lull for grid to refill batteries for evening rush, after again overnight charge from grid. Basically 1x2cable station can service 100-150 cars/day comparable to high-density gas pump. In terms of physical size, battery storage smaller than gas in terms of physical infra = doesn't need to be underground (assuming long term blade safety ensured). Gas needs storage for multiple days / week so need to scale underground tank accordingly. 1500kWh scaled for rush hour = battery storage (recycled) realistically ~30 recycled blade1s slapped into racks, a couple parking spaces worth, and can be stacked vertically. It's much more space efficient (and cost efficient) than gas.
- ZeroGravitas 6mo ago
  I don't think it's that big a deal. Even older supercharger sites in crumbling post-collapse USA are 1MW (4x 250KW stalls). I think Tesla has an off grid(!) supercharger site in California with 168x 500kW peak v4 chargers. It seems pretty doable to just spread the chargers around to meet the same throughput without causing any hot spots on the grid. The cars already have internet connected navigation systems that can react to how busy a site is and direct you to the next one.
  - maxglute 6mo ago
    Big deal for ubiquitous charge and moving away from charge hub model. Stop by any local convenience store and getting topped up in 10 min, no need to even consider detour time, i.e. BYD parterning up with KFC china to add flash charge - KFCs everywhere in PRC. The bigger deal is infra play, battery buffer mitigates grid hotspots (supercharger sites), so drop station in box in more places with less regulatory drama / capex in grid rework. Combining short charge time + ubiquitous/dropin charger combo that makes it work. Removes friction for drivers and much more economical for builders, can replace 60 spot supercharger site with 10 flash chargers. Instead of building out a charging hub, slap a few chargers in some existing retail lots, i.e. charge where you fastfood with minimal of permitting and construction - the hardware are cabinets on concrete ground pad- it's closer to modular appliance like industrial hvac than infra. Potential for proliferation very fast. IMO it's intermodal container moment for charging.
    - close04 6mo ago
      > The bigger deal is infra play, battery buffer mitigates grid hotspots That's exactly where I flagged the challenge earlier to which you replied that the math is easy. >> 1500 kWh battery storage + 600kW grid draw + 30kW solar canopy Just for 2 stalls you need to provide 2MW peak power (e.g. 1MW from the grid and 1MW from the battery), and you need probably at least 2MWh local storage to make sure you can always buffer the load. Add the large solar installation to "trickle charge" that battery. Every KFC needs upgrade works for the grid, the battery, and the solar panels. That's technically possible but financially not too attractive. Transformers are in short supply, construction work to upgrade every one of the lines isn't fast or cheap, and the production capacity isn't there yet to feed to the upgraded grid. That's why I said decades. China might pull it off because they can steamroll objections and focus on individual topics to push them according to the plan. Can many other countries afford this?
adrian_b 6mo ago
The already existing 1 MW chargers have internal batteries, so they do not need from the grid the peak power, but only the average power. The average power is lower, as there are idle times between cars. Moreover, in the beginning only a few cars would be able to charge at 1 MW, so the average power will be even lower, allowing a later upgrade of the connection to the electrical grid, when fast-charging cars would become more frequent and when there would also be more EV owners, so that more cars would have to be charged per day.
mekdoonggi 6mo ago
My understanding from watching a video on this last night, the same Blade 2.0 cells going into the cars are going into the charging stations. And it just so happens that BYD is massively scaling the manufacturing of these.

by close04 6mo ago

danielsamuels 6mo ago

1MW/800V architecture = 1250A

adrian_b 6mo ago
The 1 MW chargers installed until now (in China) are 1000 V / 1000 A. So the charging voltage has been increased, to allow a less increase in the charging current. I assume that the car negotiates with the charger the charging voltage and the maximum charging current, and then the charging proceeds at the limits established by the least capable of the two.

maxglute 6mo ago

I think flash charging infra math is: 1500 kWh battery storage + 600kW grid draw + 30kW solar canopy (if weather allows). @10m per car across 2 cables = ~36 cars over 3 hour rush hour throughput (comparable to 2 gas pump) = need ~4000 kWh, 1500 kWh from battery 1800 kWh from grid = 3300 kWh. This worst case all cars 0-97% charge, realistically mixture so 3300 kWh should cover typical peak scenarios. Then midday lull for grid to refill batteries for evening rush, after again overnight charge from grid. Basically 1x2cable station can service 100-150 cars/day comparable to high-density gas pump. In terms of physical size, battery storage smaller than gas in terms of physical infra = doesn't need to be underground (assuming long term blade safety ensured). Gas needs storage for multiple days / week so need to scale underground tank accordingly. 1500kWh scaled for rush hour = battery storage (recycled) realistically ~30 recycled blade1s slapped into racks, a couple parking spaces worth, and can be stacked vertically. It's much more space efficient (and cost efficient) than gas.

ZeroGravitas 6mo ago
I don't think it's that big a deal. Even older supercharger sites in crumbling post-collapse USA are 1MW (4x 250KW stalls). I think Tesla has an off grid(!) supercharger site in California with 168x 500kW peak v4 chargers. It seems pretty doable to just spread the chargers around to meet the same throughput without causing any hot spots on the grid. The cars already have internet connected navigation systems that can react to how busy a site is and direct you to the next one.
- maxglute 6mo ago
  Big deal for ubiquitous charge and moving away from charge hub model. Stop by any local convenience store and getting topped up in 10 min, no need to even consider detour time, i.e. BYD parterning up with KFC china to add flash charge - KFCs everywhere in PRC. The bigger deal is infra play, battery buffer mitigates grid hotspots (supercharger sites), so drop station in box in more places with less regulatory drama / capex in grid rework. Combining short charge time + ubiquitous/dropin charger combo that makes it work. Removes friction for drivers and much more economical for builders, can replace 60 spot supercharger site with 10 flash chargers. Instead of building out a charging hub, slap a few chargers in some existing retail lots, i.e. charge where you fastfood with minimal of permitting and construction - the hardware are cabinets on concrete ground pad- it's closer to modular appliance like industrial hvac than infra. Potential for proliferation very fast. IMO it's intermodal container moment for charging.
  - close04 6mo ago
    > The bigger deal is infra play, battery buffer mitigates grid hotspots That's exactly where I flagged the challenge earlier to which you replied that the math is easy. >> 1500 kWh battery storage + 600kW grid draw + 30kW solar canopy Just for 2 stalls you need to provide 2MW peak power (e.g. 1MW from the grid and 1MW from the battery), and you need probably at least 2MWh local storage to make sure you can always buffer the load. Add the large solar installation to "trickle charge" that battery. Every KFC needs upgrade works for the grid, the battery, and the solar panels. That's technically possible but financially not too attractive. Transformers are in short supply, construction work to upgrade every one of the lines isn't fast or cheap, and the production capacity isn't there yet to feed to the upgraded grid. That's why I said decades. China might pull it off because they can steamroll objections and focus on individual topics to push them according to the plan. Can many other countries afford this?

adrian_b 6mo ago

The already existing 1 MW chargers have internal batteries, so they do not need from the grid the peak power, but only the average power. The average power is lower, as there are idle times between cars. Moreover, in the beginning only a few cars would be able to charge at 1 MW, so the average power will be even lower, allowing a later upgrade of the connection to the electrical grid, when fast-charging cars would become more frequent and when there would also be more EV owners, so that more cars would have to be charged per day.

mekdoonggi 6mo ago

My understanding from watching a video on this last night, the same Blade 2.0 cells going into the cars are going into the charging stations. And it just so happens that BYD is massively scaling the manufacturing of these.