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The Iraq war alone has resulted in at least 100 thousand total deaths (including civilians) according to the most conservative estimates. How is the 5k figure r

by nandemo 14y ago

The Iraq war alone has resulted in at least 100 thousand total deaths (including civilians) according to the most conservative estimates. How is the 5k figure relevant? That's like AlQaeda claiming 9/11 wasn't very violent, since they lost only a dozen combatants.

001sky 14y ago
Historically, however, these conflicts pale in comparison to the 'normal' wars of the 20th century. Read some history if you doubt this. [1] _________ Iran-Iraq War [2] Casualties and losses 320,000–720,000 soldiers and militia killed (Iran) 150,000–375,000 soldiers and militia killed (Iraq) Economic loss of more than $500 billion (per side) 100,000+ civilians killed on both sides ______________ World War II was the deadliest military conflict in history. Over 60 million people were killed, which was over 2.5% of the world population. [3] _________________ [1] This is also clearly visible in the citation of the GP comment, but i provide more examples. [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran%E2%80%93Iraq_War http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran%E2%80%93Iraq_War [3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties
- noibl 14y ago
  Like pron, you for some reason insist on taking the casualties of one side as representative of the scale of the conflict overall. He says, 25,000 Israelis killed puts the Israeli-Arab conflict on the same scale as the Mexican Drug War (30,000) when in fact the overall death toll puts it more on the scale of the Wars in Yugoslavia (115,000). You say that the 'cost' of the Iraq war is a mere 5,000 deaths, coldly ignoring the deaths of many tens of thousands of people just because they're on 'the other side'. I hesitate to ask exactly which historians you recommend that would justify this selectivity.
  - 001sky 14y ago
    I hesitate to ask exactly which historians you recommend that would justify this selectivity. The post-9/11 wars are not in (or near) the top 10 conflicts for the US. And, en-toto casualties are an order of magnitude lower than Iran-Iraq war, etc if you want to look at it that way. Either way, you lose.
    - noibl 14y ago
      I've certainly lost the thread of your argument since you've replaced the comment I replied to, about 'the cost of doing business', with statistics from the Iran-Iraq war. I'm not really interested in whether certain wars are bigger than other wars. I am interested in how the trivialisation of ongoing conflicts tends to dovetail neatly with pro-war agendas ('cost of doing business'). [Unexplained downvotes, how novel.]
      - 001sky 14y ago
        The comment thread you are interjecting to is not of your interest, then. This sub-thread is explicitly about the quantification of violence, and comparing data accross conflicts. It seems clear you have not read either the earlier comments or much history very carefully. Your repeated attempts to politicise (a/k/a dumb down) the conversation are also trivial and out of place.
        noibl 14y ago
        Excuse me but it's not for you to dictate who is interjecting and who is merely participating. What I have pointed out, and what your own comments clearly demonstrate(d), is that this exercise in 'comparing data across conflicts' as you so euphemistically put it, has a distinctly political edge which could be missed by the unwary reader.
        001sky 14y ago
        Interjecting is what you call it when you disregard the topic being discussed, qualifications made to observations, you don't read the data in the footnotes...etc. Steven Pinker: The surprising decline in violence http://www.amazon.com/dp/1455883115 http://www.amazon.com/dp/1455883115 Filmed Mar 2007 • Posted Sep 2007 • TED2007 http://www.ted.com/talks/steven_pinker_on_the_myth_of_violence.html http://www.ted.com/talks/steven_pinker_on_the_myth_of_violen... to which the counter=argument is somthing like this: The biggest problem with [Pinker], though, is [his] overreliance on history, which, like the light on a caboose, shows us only where we are not going. We live in a time when all the rules are being rewritten blindingly fast—when, for example, an increasingly smaller number of people can do increasingly greater damage. (Scientific American)[1] I don't fully dis-agree with this latter qualication. If you go back and read my initial comments, you will see this. [1] from: http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=bookreview-steven-pinker-the-better-angels-of-our-nature-why-violence-has-declined http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=bookreview-...; See also: http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=the-decline-of-violence http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=the-decline...
  - pron 14y ago
    Oh, you've misread me. I wasn't comparing the number of Israeli deaths to the drug war, but the total number: 100,000 in 70 years, vs. 100,000 (highest estimate) in mere 6.
    - noibl 14y ago
      My apologies, then. It was my mistake.

by nandemo 14y ago

001sky 14y ago

Historically, however, these conflicts pale in comparison to the 'normal' wars of the 20th century. Read some history if you doubt this. [1] _________ Iran-Iraq War [2] Casualties and losses 320,000–720,000 soldiers and militia killed (Iran) 150,000–375,000 soldiers and militia killed (Iraq) Economic loss of more than $500 billion (per side) 100,000+ civilians killed on both sides ______________ World War II was the deadliest military conflict in history. Over 60 million people were killed, which was over 2.5% of the world population. [3] _________________ [1] This is also clearly visible in the citation of the GP comment, but i provide more examples. [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran%E2%80%93Iraq_War http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran%E2%80%93Iraq_War [3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties

noibl 14y ago
Like pron, you for some reason insist on taking the casualties of one side as representative of the scale of the conflict overall. He says, 25,000 Israelis killed puts the Israeli-Arab conflict on the same scale as the Mexican Drug War (30,000) when in fact the overall death toll puts it more on the scale of the Wars in Yugoslavia (115,000). You say that the 'cost' of the Iraq war is a mere 5,000 deaths, coldly ignoring the deaths of many tens of thousands of people just because they're on 'the other side'. I hesitate to ask exactly which historians you recommend that would justify this selectivity.
- 001sky 14y ago
  I hesitate to ask exactly which historians you recommend that would justify this selectivity. The post-9/11 wars are not in (or near) the top 10 conflicts for the US. And, en-toto casualties are an order of magnitude lower than Iran-Iraq war, etc if you want to look at it that way. Either way, you lose.
  - noibl 14y ago
    I've certainly lost the thread of your argument since you've replaced the comment I replied to, about 'the cost of doing business', with statistics from the Iran-Iraq war. I'm not really interested in whether certain wars are bigger than other wars. I am interested in how the trivialisation of ongoing conflicts tends to dovetail neatly with pro-war agendas ('cost of doing business'). [Unexplained downvotes, how novel.]
    - 001sky 14y ago
      The comment thread you are interjecting to is not of your interest, then. This sub-thread is explicitly about the quantification of violence, and comparing data accross conflicts. It seems clear you have not read either the earlier comments or much history very carefully. Your repeated attempts to politicise (a/k/a dumb down) the conversation are also trivial and out of place.
      - noibl 14y ago
        Excuse me but it's not for you to dictate who is interjecting and who is merely participating. What I have pointed out, and what your own comments clearly demonstrate(d), is that this exercise in 'comparing data across conflicts' as you so euphemistically put it, has a distinctly political edge which could be missed by the unwary reader.
        001sky 14y ago
        Interjecting is what you call it when you disregard the topic being discussed, qualifications made to observations, you don't read the data in the footnotes...etc. Steven Pinker: The surprising decline in violence http://www.amazon.com/dp/1455883115 http://www.amazon.com/dp/1455883115 Filmed Mar 2007 • Posted Sep 2007 • TED2007 http://www.ted.com/talks/steven_pinker_on_the_myth_of_violence.html http://www.ted.com/talks/steven_pinker_on_the_myth_of_violen... to which the counter=argument is somthing like this: The biggest problem with [Pinker], though, is [his] overreliance on history, which, like the light on a caboose, shows us only where we are not going. We live in a time when all the rules are being rewritten blindingly fast—when, for example, an increasingly smaller number of people can do increasingly greater damage. (Scientific American)[1] I don't fully dis-agree with this latter qualication. If you go back and read my initial comments, you will see this. [1] from: http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=bookreview-steven-pinker-the-better-angels-of-our-nature-why-violence-has-declined http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=bookreview-...; See also: http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=the-decline-of-violence http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=the-decline...
- pron 14y ago
  Oh, you've misread me. I wasn't comparing the number of Israeli deaths to the drug war, but the total number: 100,000 in 70 years, vs. 100,000 (highest estimate) in mere 6.
  - noibl 14y ago
    My apologies, then. It was my mistake.