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I'm not the author of the comment you'replying to but I'm pretty sure that consciousness is more than atoms. Feeling pain can't be explained as an interaction o

I'm not the author of the comment you'replying to but I'm pretty sure that consciousness is more than atoms. Feeling pain can't be explained as an interaction of physical particles. You could describe the chemical processes in the brain accompanying pain to very high detail. But at no point you can't explain why does it hurt so much when the atoms in the brain are in a specific state.

thirdtruck 14y ago
Why can't we explain why it hurts so much? We can describe the entirety of an operating system down to its individual ones and zeroes. Do you posit that some irreducible "Tuxness" state exists that computer scientists just refuse to acknowledge?
- RivieraKid 14y ago
  The unpleasant feeling of pain is a very real phenomenon, unlike tuxness. It can't be reduced to smaller parts. All that we can do is say "When we arrange brain's atoms like this, it hurts." We could construct robots, that react to pain exactly like humans (screaming, sweating, ...) without feeling anything. Why aren't we like that?
orangecat 14y ago
Feeling pain can't be explained as an interaction of physical particles. Because no such explanation can exist, or because we don't have a sufficient understanding yet? See "God of the gaps".
- RivieraKid 14y ago
  Because physics doesn't even have the language to describe the feeling of pain. Similarly, physics doesn't have a language to describe how "green" looks, it can only describe the frequency of green etc. Also have a look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qualia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qualia, it's basically what I'm talking about.
skyhook_mockups 14y ago
Feeling pain can't be explained as an interaction of physical particles Do you mean physical or emotional pain? I imagine that physical pain is very well understood and can be explained in (maybe) all of its entirety as a purely material (as in atoms) phenomenon. I personally don't see any reason why emotional pain can't be explained in the same way i.e. without requiring a metaphysical component.
- RivieraKid 14y ago
  Both, it doesn't really matter, basically any state of consciousness. Physical processes in brain accompanying physical pain may be understood very well. But we don't understand the mechanism that translates the physical state of brain matter to the hurting feeling. Why does it hurt, when we arrange brain's atoms in a specific way?
  - skyhook_mockups 14y ago
    Your explanation doesn't make sense. We know that there are people who a) don't exhibit emotional pain or very little compared to "normal" (sociopaths/psychopaths) b) are autistic and have "...difficulty with “subtle emotions like shame, pride, things that are much more socially oriented” [1] c) people with Congenital insensitivity to (physical) pain, some of whom experience the condition due to excess production of endorphins in the brain You seem to suggest that the question "but why does it hurt" is somehow mystical or metaphysical. I don't think it is. It hurts because your brain is wired so that it does. If it is wired otherwise (as in some people it is) then it doesn't hurt. [1] http://bigthink.com/ideas/do-people-with-autism-experience-emotions http://bigthink.com/ideas/do-people-with-autism-experience-e...
    - RivieraKid 14y ago
      Yes but the question is, why does it hurt when the brain is wired in a specific way. What makes some positions of brain's atoms painful? Physics doesn't even have a way to scientifically define what "feeling pain" is. Physics can only define physical processes accompanying feeling pain.

thirdtruck 14y ago

Why can't we explain why it hurts so much? We can describe the entirety of an operating system down to its individual ones and zeroes. Do you posit that some irreducible "Tuxness" state exists that computer scientists just refuse to acknowledge?

RivieraKid 14y ago
The unpleasant feeling of pain is a very real phenomenon, unlike tuxness. It can't be reduced to smaller parts. All that we can do is say "When we arrange brain's atoms like this, it hurts." We could construct robots, that react to pain exactly like humans (screaming, sweating, ...) without feeling anything. Why aren't we like that?

orangecat 14y ago

Feeling pain can't be explained as an interaction of physical particles. Because no such explanation can exist, or because we don't have a sufficient understanding yet? See "God of the gaps".

RivieraKid 14y ago
Because physics doesn't even have the language to describe the feeling of pain. Similarly, physics doesn't have a language to describe how "green" looks, it can only describe the frequency of green etc. Also have a look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qualia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qualia, it's basically what I'm talking about.

skyhook_mockups 14y ago

Feeling pain can't be explained as an interaction of physical particles Do you mean physical or emotional pain? I imagine that physical pain is very well understood and can be explained in (maybe) all of its entirety as a purely material (as in atoms) phenomenon. I personally don't see any reason why emotional pain can't be explained in the same way i.e. without requiring a metaphysical component.

RivieraKid 14y ago
Both, it doesn't really matter, basically any state of consciousness. Physical processes in brain accompanying physical pain may be understood very well. But we don't understand the mechanism that translates the physical state of brain matter to the hurting feeling. Why does it hurt, when we arrange brain's atoms in a specific way?
- skyhook_mockups 14y ago
  Your explanation doesn't make sense. We know that there are people who a) don't exhibit emotional pain or very little compared to "normal" (sociopaths/psychopaths) b) are autistic and have "...difficulty with “subtle emotions like shame, pride, things that are much more socially oriented” [1] c) people with Congenital insensitivity to (physical) pain, some of whom experience the condition due to excess production of endorphins in the brain You seem to suggest that the question "but why does it hurt" is somehow mystical or metaphysical. I don't think it is. It hurts because your brain is wired so that it does. If it is wired otherwise (as in some people it is) then it doesn't hurt. [1] http://bigthink.com/ideas/do-people-with-autism-experience-emotions http://bigthink.com/ideas/do-people-with-autism-experience-e...
  - RivieraKid 14y ago
    Yes but the question is, why does it hurt when the brain is wired in a specific way. What makes some positions of brain's atoms painful? Physics doesn't even have a way to scientifically define what "feeling pain" is. Physics can only define physical processes accompanying feeling pain.