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If DANE were to roll out to browsers, I think plenty of people would rather use it than centralizing on Let's Encrypt. DNSSEC isn't easy, but either is certbot

If DANE were to roll out to browsers, I think plenty of people would rather use it than centralizing on Let's Encrypt. DNSSEC isn't easy, but either is certbot. DNSSEC also isn't that hard if you're not self-hosting your DNS servers (and even then it's easy if you pick a modern DNS server). Most domains seem to use their registrars free DNS servers. For those domains, DNSSEC is often just a checkbox. I just activated DNSSEC on three domains by hitting that checkbox. A certbot-style tool can use the same API many existing certbot plugins already provide access to for setting up DANE. However, until browsers actually implement DANE, it's pretty useless. I know some people use it for mail servers (for some reason, don't see why they can't use Let's Encrypt for that) but even there it's optional.

thayne 6mo ago
> DNSSEC also isn't that hard if you're not self-hosting your DNS servers It isn't that hard if: - you use your domain registrar for serving your DNS as well. Even if you aren't "self-hosting", but use a different service for DNS hosting than you registered your domain with, then it can be complicated to coordinate between them. And - your domain registrar makes it easy to set up. For some it is just a checkbox, for others, you have to contact customer support, and sometimes pay more. Also, the server is just half of the problem. It also requires dns resolvers and clients to validate DNSSEC, which often isn't done today, and even when it is, often fails open, because so many domains don't use DNSSEC, and intermediate resolvers don't always support it. Validating DNSSEC can also hurt performance, in part because of the larger response sizes.
- jeroenhd 6mo ago
  > Even if you aren't "self-hosting", but use a different service for DNS hosting than you registered your domain with, then it can be complicated to coordinate between them Indeed, you'd need to copy-paste four text fields > for others, you have to contact customer support, and sometimes pay more. That's ridiculous, I've never seen any registrar do that. Even if you do choose a terrible registrar, actual DANE rollout in browsers would put pressure on them to get their shit together. As for DNSSEC validation: validation currently seems to happen between 0 to 95% according to https://stats.labs.apnic.net/dnssec https://stats.labs.apnic.net/dnssec Obviously, for DANE to work, verification must happen. DANE-enabled browsers will enforce validation, or fall back to regular TLS (with the scary warnings if someone stripped DNSSEC for a DANE server, as the certificate doesn't work any more). On operating systems that don't bother with DNSSEC validation, browsers can still query the necessary keys. As for performance, DNSSEC does impose extra network traffic, but so does transmitting an intermediate certificate.
  - tptacek 6mo ago
    Hard to square this with the operational history of DNSSEC at some of the best-resourced ops teams in the world.
    - jeroenhd 6mo ago
      If you're stuck with something like AWS and their buggy implementation then you might indeed run into trouble. Luckily, normal DNS servers don't have this issue. Most people and websites don't have ops teams, though. It's mostly a challenge if you manage your own DNS, which most people don't do.
      - tptacek 6mo ago
        The point isn't that you're stuck using Route53, it's that large, hypercapable teams, including the one at Route53, have attempted to deploy and manage DNSSEC and failed, indicating that the challenge is not simply "4 lines in a text file".
tptacek 6mo ago
The "just check a checkbox in your registrar" UX depends on the registrar having custody of your keys. That's not how certbot works.
- jeroenhd 6mo ago
  Certbot does domain validation or DNS validation. In either case, your registrar can generate valid certificates for your domain.

thayne 6mo ago

> DNSSEC also isn't that hard if you're not self-hosting your DNS servers It isn't that hard if: - you use your domain registrar for serving your DNS as well. Even if you aren't "self-hosting", but use a different service for DNS hosting than you registered your domain with, then it can be complicated to coordinate between them. And - your domain registrar makes it easy to set up. For some it is just a checkbox, for others, you have to contact customer support, and sometimes pay more. Also, the server is just half of the problem. It also requires dns resolvers and clients to validate DNSSEC, which often isn't done today, and even when it is, often fails open, because so many domains don't use DNSSEC, and intermediate resolvers don't always support it. Validating DNSSEC can also hurt performance, in part because of the larger response sizes.

jeroenhd 6mo ago
> Even if you aren't "self-hosting", but use a different service for DNS hosting than you registered your domain with, then it can be complicated to coordinate between them Indeed, you'd need to copy-paste four text fields > for others, you have to contact customer support, and sometimes pay more. That's ridiculous, I've never seen any registrar do that. Even if you do choose a terrible registrar, actual DANE rollout in browsers would put pressure on them to get their shit together. As for DNSSEC validation: validation currently seems to happen between 0 to 95% according to https://stats.labs.apnic.net/dnssec https://stats.labs.apnic.net/dnssec Obviously, for DANE to work, verification must happen. DANE-enabled browsers will enforce validation, or fall back to regular TLS (with the scary warnings if someone stripped DNSSEC for a DANE server, as the certificate doesn't work any more). On operating systems that don't bother with DNSSEC validation, browsers can still query the necessary keys. As for performance, DNSSEC does impose extra network traffic, but so does transmitting an intermediate certificate.
- tptacek 6mo ago
  Hard to square this with the operational history of DNSSEC at some of the best-resourced ops teams in the world.
  - jeroenhd 6mo ago
    If you're stuck with something like AWS and their buggy implementation then you might indeed run into trouble. Luckily, normal DNS servers don't have this issue. Most people and websites don't have ops teams, though. It's mostly a challenge if you manage your own DNS, which most people don't do.
    - tptacek 6mo ago
      The point isn't that you're stuck using Route53, it's that large, hypercapable teams, including the one at Route53, have attempted to deploy and manage DNSSEC and failed, indicating that the challenge is not simply "4 lines in a text file".

tptacek 6mo ago

The "just check a checkbox in your registrar" UX depends on the registrar having custody of your keys. That's not how certbot works.

jeroenhd 6mo ago
Certbot does domain validation or DNS validation. In either case, your registrar can generate valid certificates for your domain.