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As a cyclist and a driver it’s not immediately apparent which Waymo behavior I prefer for passenger dropoffs/pickups. While it’s annoying in the moment to peda

As a cyclist and a driver it’s not immediately apparent which Waymo behavior I prefer for passenger dropoffs/pickups. While it’s annoying in the moment to pedal around a parked car, I’m fine with it. However, having a Waymo dropping off clear of the bike lane sounds good, until the exiting passenger accidentally doors a cyclist who isn’t prepared for that possibility. I suppose I’d rather suffer the inconvenience of going around a parked car than risk the devastation of being doored.

daemonologist 5mo ago
Going around a parked car is not merely an inconvenience, it introduces an extra risk of being hit from behind (obviously you should check over your shoulder before moving into the lane, but this is the imperfect real world, and even the act of checking over your shoulder is a small risk) or by a vehicle pulling out of a cross street which didn't see you through the stopped car. However I agree that there isn't an obvious solution without making major improvements to infrastructure - right now where the bike lane is just paint everyone parks in it (Uber, taxis, delivery drivers, etc.).
- Saline9515 5mo ago
  It's also possible to use a feature that is present on the bikes, even if rarely or never used by urban cyclists: braking and waiting for the passenger to drop off, before continuing for your destination. Something car drivers and pedestrians do, usually.
  - datsci_est_2015 5mo ago
    Not in my city. Taxis and ride shares tell you to get out on the right hand side so that you don’t get swept by cars passing you on the left. Also often difficult to tell as a bicyclist how long that car will be sitting there. Sometimes it’s a delivery or pickup or something inane that will have you looking like a doofus for waiting.
- crazygringo 5mo ago
  No. Going around a parked car is a basic ability you need to have as a cyclist. If you can't do that safely, then you have no business riding in the first place. Looking behind you is not optional, as you seem to suggest it is. And if it is actually a "small risk", then you are going way too fast. Again -- if you don't have the environmental awareness to go around a parked car, then you shouldn't be riding a bicycle in the first place. Full stop.
  - defrost 5mo ago
    This comment assumes a high mix of cars and bikes in an environment of unseparated traffic. With literal decades of near daily bike riding behind me I've rarely had to maneuver a bike or a car around a parked car in regular (not US) traffic flow.
    - crazygringo 5mo ago
      It doesn't matter how often you have to do it. It's still a basic ability you need to possess. And yes, my own experience comes from Manhattan, where that's something pretty much everyone has to do on a daily basis. You've got double-parking everywhere. But even if you don't need to often (lucky you), the idea that this is somehow something unusually unsafe just doesn't hold any water. If it's unsafe for you, you have no business being on the road. You are a danger to others if you are unable to look behind you when changing lanes.
curiousgal 5mo ago
Even if you go around the parked car, you still risk getting doored on the other side.
avidiax 5mo ago
You can get doored on either side of the car, and when you are forced to pass, you have to enter the traffic lane, which pressures you to maintain speed. Whereas in the bike lane, you can slow down a bit anticipating that a door may open. Waymo does at least warn the occupants if there's a vehicle or bicycle approaching.
- Saline9515 5mo ago
  It is well known that by stopping, the cyclist will burn and be consumed in flammes in mere seconds.
  - expedition32 5mo ago
    Why should cyclists be inconvenienced by taxis? They have just as much right to get to their destination.
    - Saline9515 5mo ago
      Because taxis and cyclists are road users like others, car drivers also have to stop if a taxi has to drop off someone as long as it's quick. Same with buses, also. Or trams. It's the same with pedestrians : if an old person walks on a small sidewalk, I will stop or slow down. Or if I see two guys carrying a washing machine. As a pedestrian, I don't see cyclists stopping often when they ride on the sidewalk, though.
      - derwiki 5mo ago
        How often do you see two guys carrying a washing machine?
        Saline9515 5mo ago
        It depends how lively/busy the street is, but in towns like Paris, every day I would have to accommodate fellow pedestrians unloading trucks or doing deliveries in the street. The macha lattes doesn't appear magically in your favorite coffee shop.
scarmig 5mo ago
One thing we should be happy about: Waymo's next gen Zeekr cars have sliding doors, eliminating the traditional risk of dooring. Passengers might still jump out without paying attention, but my expectation is that they'll be more cautious than opening the door; cyclists will have more forewarning than an opening door; and even if they do get hit, it will be a less catastrophic accident if a collision does occur. (The tradeoff, as there are always tradeoffs, is that the passenger having more skin in the game means that they'll likely be physically hit more often.)
skybrian 5mo ago
For a Waymo unloading passengers, it seems like stopping and waiting would be safest?
Benji_San 5mo ago
I agree here that it can depend on the infrastructure which option is better. But one way to look at it is that if a car is parked in the bike lane then the bike will be in the car lane == more risk for the bike. The bike is also at risk for being doored from either side when passing the taxi. The best option would actually be to have some indicators on the taxi which shows which doors are "hot" and expected to open. A taxi with closed doors is always a huge risk and will always need to be passed outside the dooring range.
jlebar 5mo ago
> having a Waymo dropping off clear of the bike lane sounds good, until the exiting passenger accidentally doors a cyclist who isn’t prepared for that possibility. Note that Waymos will alert you if a cyclist is approaching so you don't door them. Not saying it's perfect, you can still open the door if you want, but they are very consistent about this.
- tmnvix 5mo ago
  Except for the example in the article where the warning failed and an exiting passenger doored a cyclist resulting in brain injury.
II2II 5mo ago
> While it’s annoying in the moment to pedal around a parked car, I’m fine with it. Personally, I'm fine with it too. Problem is, a lot of motorists are not fine with that. Whether I get stuck on the road because the bike lane is curb separated or because there is an excessive number of cars parked in the bike lane, motorists start screaming at me. A few months back, I had one aggressively pass me. I checked to ensure the road was clear before entering it, the only way they could have passed me in that manner is if they accelerated (i.e. they created an issue out of something that shouldn't have impacted them). The sense of entitlement of some motorists is dangerous. They are willing to behave in a manner that puts people's lives at risk.
- datsci_est_2015 5mo ago
  Just had someone speed up and blow a stop sign on a right turn in a residential area (known for being walkable with young children) to cut in front of me my bike to make sure they wouldn’t have to wait for me to pass them at the stop sign. Full-sized SUV whose grill was at my chest height. Fairly routine and simultaneously completely unhinged behavior. I also enjoy playing chicken on runs with the SUVs in another rather entitled urban neighborhood where if they begin accelerating into the intersection after a rolling stop while I’m still in the crosswalk (to “anticipate” me getting across the road and save 2-5 seconds), I’ll simply stop running and force them to actually come to a complete stop.

daemonologist 5mo ago

Going around a parked car is not merely an inconvenience, it introduces an extra risk of being hit from behind (obviously you should check over your shoulder before moving into the lane, but this is the imperfect real world, and even the act of checking over your shoulder is a small risk) or by a vehicle pulling out of a cross street which didn't see you through the stopped car. However I agree that there isn't an obvious solution without making major improvements to infrastructure - right now where the bike lane is just paint everyone parks in it (Uber, taxis, delivery drivers, etc.).

Saline9515 5mo ago
It's also possible to use a feature that is present on the bikes, even if rarely or never used by urban cyclists: braking and waiting for the passenger to drop off, before continuing for your destination. Something car drivers and pedestrians do, usually.
- datsci_est_2015 5mo ago
  Not in my city. Taxis and ride shares tell you to get out on the right hand side so that you don’t get swept by cars passing you on the left. Also often difficult to tell as a bicyclist how long that car will be sitting there. Sometimes it’s a delivery or pickup or something inane that will have you looking like a doofus for waiting.
crazygringo 5mo ago
No. Going around a parked car is a basic ability you need to have as a cyclist. If you can't do that safely, then you have no business riding in the first place. Looking behind you is not optional, as you seem to suggest it is. And if it is actually a "small risk", then you are going way too fast. Again -- if you don't have the environmental awareness to go around a parked car, then you shouldn't be riding a bicycle in the first place. Full stop.
- defrost 5mo ago
  This comment assumes a high mix of cars and bikes in an environment of unseparated traffic. With literal decades of near daily bike riding behind me I've rarely had to maneuver a bike or a car around a parked car in regular (not US) traffic flow.
  - crazygringo 5mo ago
    It doesn't matter how often you have to do it. It's still a basic ability you need to possess. And yes, my own experience comes from Manhattan, where that's something pretty much everyone has to do on a daily basis. You've got double-parking everywhere. But even if you don't need to often (lucky you), the idea that this is somehow something unusually unsafe just doesn't hold any water. If it's unsafe for you, you have no business being on the road. You are a danger to others if you are unable to look behind you when changing lanes.

curiousgal 5mo ago

Even if you go around the parked car, you still risk getting doored on the other side.

avidiax 5mo ago

You can get doored on either side of the car, and when you are forced to pass, you have to enter the traffic lane, which pressures you to maintain speed. Whereas in the bike lane, you can slow down a bit anticipating that a door may open. Waymo does at least warn the occupants if there's a vehicle or bicycle approaching.

Saline9515 5mo ago
It is well known that by stopping, the cyclist will burn and be consumed in flammes in mere seconds.
- expedition32 5mo ago
  Why should cyclists be inconvenienced by taxis? They have just as much right to get to their destination.
  - Saline9515 5mo ago
    Because taxis and cyclists are road users like others, car drivers also have to stop if a taxi has to drop off someone as long as it's quick. Same with buses, also. Or trams. It's the same with pedestrians : if an old person walks on a small sidewalk, I will stop or slow down. Or if I see two guys carrying a washing machine. As a pedestrian, I don't see cyclists stopping often when they ride on the sidewalk, though.
    - derwiki 5mo ago
      How often do you see two guys carrying a washing machine?
      - Saline9515 5mo ago
        It depends how lively/busy the street is, but in towns like Paris, every day I would have to accommodate fellow pedestrians unloading trucks or doing deliveries in the street. The macha lattes doesn't appear magically in your favorite coffee shop.

scarmig 5mo ago

One thing we should be happy about: Waymo's next gen Zeekr cars have sliding doors, eliminating the traditional risk of dooring. Passengers might still jump out without paying attention, but my expectation is that they'll be more cautious than opening the door; cyclists will have more forewarning than an opening door; and even if they do get hit, it will be a less catastrophic accident if a collision does occur. (The tradeoff, as there are always tradeoffs, is that the passenger having more skin in the game means that they'll likely be physically hit more often.)

skybrian 5mo ago

For a Waymo unloading passengers, it seems like stopping and waiting would be safest?

Benji_San 5mo ago

I agree here that it can depend on the infrastructure which option is better. But one way to look at it is that if a car is parked in the bike lane then the bike will be in the car lane == more risk for the bike. The bike is also at risk for being doored from either side when passing the taxi. The best option would actually be to have some indicators on the taxi which shows which doors are "hot" and expected to open. A taxi with closed doors is always a huge risk and will always need to be passed outside the dooring range.

jlebar 5mo ago

> having a Waymo dropping off clear of the bike lane sounds good, until the exiting passenger accidentally doors a cyclist who isn’t prepared for that possibility. Note that Waymos will alert you if a cyclist is approaching so you don't door them. Not saying it's perfect, you can still open the door if you want, but they are very consistent about this.

tmnvix 5mo ago
Except for the example in the article where the warning failed and an exiting passenger doored a cyclist resulting in brain injury.

II2II 5mo ago

> While it’s annoying in the moment to pedal around a parked car, I’m fine with it. Personally, I'm fine with it too. Problem is, a lot of motorists are not fine with that. Whether I get stuck on the road because the bike lane is curb separated or because there is an excessive number of cars parked in the bike lane, motorists start screaming at me. A few months back, I had one aggressively pass me. I checked to ensure the road was clear before entering it, the only way they could have passed me in that manner is if they accelerated (i.e. they created an issue out of something that shouldn't have impacted them). The sense of entitlement of some motorists is dangerous. They are willing to behave in a manner that puts people's lives at risk.

datsci_est_2015 5mo ago
Just had someone speed up and blow a stop sign on a right turn in a residential area (known for being walkable with young children) to cut in front of me my bike to make sure they wouldn’t have to wait for me to pass them at the stop sign. Full-sized SUV whose grill was at my chest height. Fairly routine and simultaneously completely unhinged behavior. I also enjoy playing chicken on runs with the SUVs in another rather entitled urban neighborhood where if they begin accelerating into the intersection after a rolling stop while I’m still in the crosswalk (to “anticipate” me getting across the road and save 2-5 seconds), I’ll simply stop running and force them to actually come to a complete stop.