3 ms·

I just feel like "you can do this with Kubernetes" is a slippery slope. "You can do X with Y, so use Y" is a great way to add a dependency, especially if it is

by ablob 5mo ago

I just feel like "you can do this with Kubernetes" is a slippery slope. "You can do X with Y, so use Y" is a great way to add a dependency, especially if it is "community vetted" already. Sometimes simple is better - you don't need to add anything that implements some of you logic as a dependency to stay DRY or whatever you want to call it. It really feels like we are drowning in self-imposed tech debt and keep adding layers to try and hold it for just a while longer. Now that being said, there is no reason not to add Kubernetes once a sufficient overlap is achieved.

echelon 5mo ago
You can use k8s on $2/mo digital ocean projects. It probably even works on the free tier of a lot of providers. And there's zero setup. Just a deployment yaml that specifies exactly what you want deployed, which has the benefit of easy version control. I don't get why people are so bent on hating Kubernetes. The mental cost to deploy a 6-line deployment yaml is less than futzing around with FTP and nginx. Kube is the new LAMP stack. It's easier too. And portable. If you're talking managed kube vs one you're taking the responsibility of self-managing, sure. But that's no different than self-managing your stack in the old world. Suddenly you have to become Sysadmin/SRE.
- throwawaypath 5mo ago
  >And portable. This made me audibly guffaw. Kubernetes is a lot of things, but "portable" is not one of them. GKE, EKS, AKS, OCP, etc., portability between them is nowhere near guaranteed.
  - cortesoft 5mo ago
    It is if you stick to standard Kubernetes resources, and it has gotten even easier with better storage class and load balancer support. All of the cloud providers now give you default storage classes and ingresses when you provision a cluster on them, so you can use the exact same deployment on any of them an automatically get those things provisioned in the right way out of the box.
    - throwawaypath 5mo ago
      >It is if you stick to standard Kubernetes resources "If you stick to standard C..." No one does, that's the issue. Helm charts that only support certain cloud providers, operators and annotations that end up being platform specific, etc. >now give you default storage classes and ingresses Ingress is being deprecated, it's Gateway now! Welcome to hell, er, Kubernetes.
      - cortesoft 5mo ago
        I use Kubernetes every day, and have worked with dozens of helm charts, and have yet to encounter cloud specific helm charts. Are these internal helm charts for your company? Obviously you can lock yourself in if you choose, but I have yet to see third party tools that assume a specific provider (unless you are using tools created BY that provider). At my previous spot, we were running dozens of clusters, with some on prem and some in the cloud. It was easy to move workloads between the two, the only issue was ACLs, but that was our own choice. I know they are pushing the new gateway api, but ingresses still work just fine.
        throwawaypath 5mo ago
        Tell me you haven't managed Kubernetes at scale without telling me you haven't managed Kubernetes at scale. Helm charts may not support a cloud platform like Rancher, Azure, etc. or may have platform specific issues. First one I checked: https://docs.jfrog.com/installation/docs/helm-chart-requirements_general-system-requirements https://docs.jfrog.com/installation/docs/helm-chart-requirem... "When deploying a JFrog application on an AWS EKS cluster, the AWS EBS CSI Driver is required for dynamic volume provisioning. However, this driver is not included in the JFrog Helm Charts." "JFrog validates compatibility with core Kubernetes distributions. Some Kubernetes vendors apply additional logic or hardening (for example, Rancher), so JFrog Platform deployment on those vendor-specific distributions might not be fully supported."
      - vbezhenar 5mo ago
        > Ingress is being deprecated Do you have any links about Ingress being deprecated? Official docs here: https://kubernetes.io/docs/reference/kubernetes-api/service-resources/ingress-v1/ https://kubernetes.io/docs/reference/kubernetes-api/service-... There are no mentions about this API being deprecated.
- subhobroto 5mo ago
  > Suddenly you have to become Sysadmin/SRE I don't you made that argument but could a valid conclusion of your comment be that, because Kubernetes is so ubiquitous, using it frees you from being a Sysadmin/SRE?
  - 0x457 5mo ago
    Frees you from being a sysadmin, but burndens you with being a k8s operator, still an SRE.
- gzread 5mo ago
  > And there's zero setup. Just a deployment yaml that specifies exactly what you want deployed Writing this yaml is hours and hours of setup if you can't ctrl+c/v from your last project
  - turtlebits 5mo ago
    AI is especially good at writing IaC. Most small projects I let it write a Dockerfile too.
cortesoft 5mo ago
Kubernetes handles so many layers you are going to need for every app, though… deployments, networking, cert management, monitoring, logging, server maintenance, horizontal scaling… this isn’t a slippery slope, it is just what you need.
- chillfox 5mo ago
  But k8s does not do almost any of those things! You have to pick and then configure those components, just like you would have had to pick and configure apps doing those things if you were not using k8s, so the only thing k8s actually brings to the table is a common configuration format (yaml).
SOLAR_FIELDS 5mo ago
The thing about Kubernetes is its a standardization of deployment. Kubernetes is complicated because deploying software is complicated. You might try to YAGNI hand wave it away, but as the article points out, over time, you end up building Kubernetes anyway

by ablob 5mo ago

echelon 5mo ago

You can use k8s on $2/mo digital ocean projects. It probably even works on the free tier of a lot of providers. And there's zero setup. Just a deployment yaml that specifies exactly what you want deployed, which has the benefit of easy version control. I don't get why people are so bent on hating Kubernetes. The mental cost to deploy a 6-line deployment yaml is less than futzing around with FTP and nginx. Kube is the new LAMP stack. It's easier too. And portable. If you're talking managed kube vs one you're taking the responsibility of self-managing, sure. But that's no different than self-managing your stack in the old world. Suddenly you have to become Sysadmin/SRE.

throwawaypath 5mo ago
>And portable. This made me audibly guffaw. Kubernetes is a lot of things, but "portable" is not one of them. GKE, EKS, AKS, OCP, etc., portability between them is nowhere near guaranteed.
- cortesoft 5mo ago
  It is if you stick to standard Kubernetes resources, and it has gotten even easier with better storage class and load balancer support. All of the cloud providers now give you default storage classes and ingresses when you provision a cluster on them, so you can use the exact same deployment on any of them an automatically get those things provisioned in the right way out of the box.
  - throwawaypath 5mo ago
    >It is if you stick to standard Kubernetes resources "If you stick to standard C..." No one does, that's the issue. Helm charts that only support certain cloud providers, operators and annotations that end up being platform specific, etc. >now give you default storage classes and ingresses Ingress is being deprecated, it's Gateway now! Welcome to hell, er, Kubernetes.
    - cortesoft 5mo ago
      I use Kubernetes every day, and have worked with dozens of helm charts, and have yet to encounter cloud specific helm charts. Are these internal helm charts for your company? Obviously you can lock yourself in if you choose, but I have yet to see third party tools that assume a specific provider (unless you are using tools created BY that provider). At my previous spot, we were running dozens of clusters, with some on prem and some in the cloud. It was easy to move workloads between the two, the only issue was ACLs, but that was our own choice. I know they are pushing the new gateway api, but ingresses still work just fine.
      - throwawaypath 5mo ago
        Tell me you haven't managed Kubernetes at scale without telling me you haven't managed Kubernetes at scale. Helm charts may not support a cloud platform like Rancher, Azure, etc. or may have platform specific issues. First one I checked: https://docs.jfrog.com/installation/docs/helm-chart-requirements_general-system-requirements https://docs.jfrog.com/installation/docs/helm-chart-requirem... "When deploying a JFrog application on an AWS EKS cluster, the AWS EBS CSI Driver is required for dynamic volume provisioning. However, this driver is not included in the JFrog Helm Charts." "JFrog validates compatibility with core Kubernetes distributions. Some Kubernetes vendors apply additional logic or hardening (for example, Rancher), so JFrog Platform deployment on those vendor-specific distributions might not be fully supported."
    - vbezhenar 5mo ago
      > Ingress is being deprecated Do you have any links about Ingress being deprecated? Official docs here: https://kubernetes.io/docs/reference/kubernetes-api/service-resources/ingress-v1/ https://kubernetes.io/docs/reference/kubernetes-api/service-... There are no mentions about this API being deprecated.
subhobroto 5mo ago
> Suddenly you have to become Sysadmin/SRE I don't you made that argument but could a valid conclusion of your comment be that, because Kubernetes is so ubiquitous, using it frees you from being a Sysadmin/SRE?
- 0x457 5mo ago
  Frees you from being a sysadmin, but burndens you with being a k8s operator, still an SRE.
gzread 5mo ago
> And there's zero setup. Just a deployment yaml that specifies exactly what you want deployed Writing this yaml is hours and hours of setup if you can't ctrl+c/v from your last project
- turtlebits 5mo ago
  AI is especially good at writing IaC. Most small projects I let it write a Dockerfile too.

cortesoft 5mo ago

Kubernetes handles so many layers you are going to need for every app, though… deployments, networking, cert management, monitoring, logging, server maintenance, horizontal scaling… this isn’t a slippery slope, it is just what you need.

chillfox 5mo ago
But k8s does not do almost any of those things! You have to pick and then configure those components, just like you would have had to pick and configure apps doing those things if you were not using k8s, so the only thing k8s actually brings to the table is a common configuration format (yaml).

SOLAR_FIELDS 5mo ago

The thing about Kubernetes is its a standardization of deployment. Kubernetes is complicated because deploying software is complicated. You might try to YAGNI hand wave it away, but as the article points out, over time, you end up building Kubernetes anyway