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Sharia Law. If you don't believe in Allah and the teachings within the Qur'an, feel free to look up how Sharia law dictates your treatment from its believers.

by HaZeust 5mo ago

Sharia Law. If you don't believe in Allah and the teachings within the Qur'an, feel free to look up how Sharia law dictates your treatment from its believers. You are also mistaken, the Pew Research study explicitly lays out the percentages of individuals within Islam that believe in the death penalty for apostasy. For example, in Egypt, 86% of Muslims who favored making Sharia official law supported the death penalty for apostasy; in Jordan, it was 82%; in Afghanistan, 79%. Hardly a reasonable take. Indeed, Sharia Law is a dog-whistle in Western nation talks, but that's a luxury on our part. It's a very real belief for a very real cohort of people, however distant they are from enacting action on us today.

za3faran 5mo ago
I know what Shariah law is (incidentally, the word Shariah means "Law", that's like saying "law law" which is nonsensical). Now tell me what did you read about what it dictates form its believers? Apostasy in classical Islamic scholarship is equivalent to treason - which many present day non-Muslim countries have the capital punishment for. Scholars have discussed this topic in detail, not every apostate has this applied to them.
- HaZeust 5mo ago
  >"incidentally, the word Shariah means "Law", that's like saying "law law" which is nonsensical" I'm glad we could point out pedantic semantics - if you want to be outdone, "sharia" means "way". Nonetheless, "Sharia Law" is a term that means something in jargon and in colloquial, and it is understood to most (serious inquirers) as a mechanation of law, typically from a governing body, that is inspired and sourced by a mix of verses in the Qur'an, prophetic tradition, hadiths, and scholarly consensus between all aforementioned elements. >"Now tell me what did you read about what it dictates form its believers?" At least try to be genuine, please: Surah 5:51: "O you who have believed, do not take the Jews and the Christians as allies. They are allies of one another. And whoever is an ally to them among you - then indeed, he is [one] of them." Surah 9:5: "And when the sacred months have passed, then kill the polytheists wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush. But if they should repent, establish prayer, and give zakah, let them [go] on their way." The Jizya verse is all about sanctioning religious "freedom" and only even tolerating "People of the Book" outside Islam if they pay a special tax called a jizya. And yes! To your point: "Apostasy in classical Islamic scholarship is equivalent to treason", it is with this belief that Islam is not predicated upon any belief of religious freedom - Western values are. Their beliefs are further predicated upon commands to treat People of The Book (Christians and Jews) with less-than-desirable behaviors, all of which I sourced above. We can talk about bans on places of worship and criminalizing proselytization outside of Islam if you're somehow not convinced? But in any case, unless you want to play the excuse that Christians and Jews do from the other side of the aisle when they say that this was directed to a certain people at a certain time - which carries its own enormous pragmatic and theological flaws (and is often at great detriment to Muslims when logically exercised) - it is not possible to call the beliefs of a pious Muslim compatible with traditional Western Values. And this is just me appealing to the pragmatic, such conclusions follow logically what a pious Muslim's more-extreme beliefs are for religiously-tolerant cultures, and their beliefs towards the people that make them up.
  - cholantesh 5mo ago
    Wait till you see what God asks of his followers in the Bible.
    - HaZeust 5mo ago
      Unconvincing. Wait till you see the percentage of modern Christians that disregard and ignore calls and commands for violence present in the bible, compared to believers within the other 2 Abrahamic religions. Western values separated themselves from several beliefs demanded by the Christianity religions that inspired them. They self-governed and organically evolved beyond several parts of their source material (homosexuality and sodomy, slavery, religious violence, working on the sabbath, forced assimilation, torture and wartime measures, textile production). Shocking, right? Almost like it's possible...
      - cholantesh 5mo ago
        Most 'modern' Christians are barely even aware of the content of the Bible, and most adherents of all three religions are not acting on those commands anyway. >They self-governed and organically evolved beyond several parts of their source material Ah yes, wars, revolutions, general strikes, all famously acts of self-governance.
        HaZeust 5mo ago
        You sure showed me with this 0-effort response, cadet!
        cholantesh 5mo ago
        Seems appropriate as it's about as much effort as you put into forming your worldview.
        HaZeust 5mo ago
        HN Rule Number 1 (and Life): "Attack ideas, not people". And it's my worldview needing refinement?
esalman 5mo ago
Sharia law became mainstream, even in 20th century, as a direct result of the US supporting wahabism in Saudi Arabia in exchange for oil. Ottomans even had favorable view of homosexuality, before Ibn Saud and his interpretation of Islam became a thing.

by HaZeust 5mo ago

za3faran 5mo ago

I know what Shariah law is (incidentally, the word Shariah means "Law", that's like saying "law law" which is nonsensical). Now tell me what did you read about what it dictates form its believers? Apostasy in classical Islamic scholarship is equivalent to treason - which many present day non-Muslim countries have the capital punishment for. Scholars have discussed this topic in detail, not every apostate has this applied to them.

HaZeust 5mo ago
>"incidentally, the word Shariah means "Law", that's like saying "law law" which is nonsensical" I'm glad we could point out pedantic semantics - if you want to be outdone, "sharia" means "way". Nonetheless, "Sharia Law" is a term that means something in jargon and in colloquial, and it is understood to most (serious inquirers) as a mechanation of law, typically from a governing body, that is inspired and sourced by a mix of verses in the Qur'an, prophetic tradition, hadiths, and scholarly consensus between all aforementioned elements. >"Now tell me what did you read about what it dictates form its believers?" At least try to be genuine, please: Surah 5:51: "O you who have believed, do not take the Jews and the Christians as allies. They are allies of one another. And whoever is an ally to them among you - then indeed, he is [one] of them." Surah 9:5: "And when the sacred months have passed, then kill the polytheists wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush. But if they should repent, establish prayer, and give zakah, let them [go] on their way." The Jizya verse is all about sanctioning religious "freedom" and only even tolerating "People of the Book" outside Islam if they pay a special tax called a jizya. And yes! To your point: "Apostasy in classical Islamic scholarship is equivalent to treason", it is with this belief that Islam is not predicated upon any belief of religious freedom - Western values are. Their beliefs are further predicated upon commands to treat People of The Book (Christians and Jews) with less-than-desirable behaviors, all of which I sourced above. We can talk about bans on places of worship and criminalizing proselytization outside of Islam if you're somehow not convinced? But in any case, unless you want to play the excuse that Christians and Jews do from the other side of the aisle when they say that this was directed to a certain people at a certain time - which carries its own enormous pragmatic and theological flaws (and is often at great detriment to Muslims when logically exercised) - it is not possible to call the beliefs of a pious Muslim compatible with traditional Western Values. And this is just me appealing to the pragmatic, such conclusions follow logically what a pious Muslim's more-extreme beliefs are for religiously-tolerant cultures, and their beliefs towards the people that make them up.
- cholantesh 5mo ago
  Wait till you see what God asks of his followers in the Bible.
  - HaZeust 5mo ago
    Unconvincing. Wait till you see the percentage of modern Christians that disregard and ignore calls and commands for violence present in the bible, compared to believers within the other 2 Abrahamic religions. Western values separated themselves from several beliefs demanded by the Christianity religions that inspired them. They self-governed and organically evolved beyond several parts of their source material (homosexuality and sodomy, slavery, religious violence, working on the sabbath, forced assimilation, torture and wartime measures, textile production). Shocking, right? Almost like it's possible...
    - cholantesh 5mo ago
      Most 'modern' Christians are barely even aware of the content of the Bible, and most adherents of all three religions are not acting on those commands anyway. >They self-governed and organically evolved beyond several parts of their source material Ah yes, wars, revolutions, general strikes, all famously acts of self-governance.
      - HaZeust 5mo ago
        You sure showed me with this 0-effort response, cadet!
        cholantesh 5mo ago
        Seems appropriate as it's about as much effort as you put into forming your worldview.
        HaZeust 5mo ago
        HN Rule Number 1 (and Life): "Attack ideas, not people". And it's my worldview needing refinement?

esalman 5mo ago

Sharia law became mainstream, even in 20th century, as a direct result of the US supporting wahabism in Saudi Arabia in exchange for oil. Ottomans even had favorable view of homosexuality, before Ibn Saud and his interpretation of Islam became a thing.