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I asked ChatGPT to draw the outline of an ellipse using Unicode braille. I asked for 30x8 and it absolutely nailed it. A beautiful piece of ascii (er, Unicode

I asked ChatGPT to draw the outline of an ellipse using Unicode braille. I asked for 30x8 and it absolutely nailed it. A beautiful piece of ascii (er, Unicode) art. But I wanted to mark the origin! So I asked for a 31x7 ellipse instead. It completely flubbed it, and for 31x9 too. When a model gives a really good answer, does that just mean it’s seen the problem before? When it gives a crappy answer, is that not simply indicating the problem is novel?

ghusbands 6mo ago
Do you posit that there are enough examples of 30x8 ellipses encoded in braille online for ChatGPT to learn from but not 31x7 or 31x9 ellipses? That seems unlikely.
- gorgoiler 6mo ago
  Yes, or the model got lucky with the quality of output for a particular combination of my prompt and the reasoning behind its answer that lined up with something it had seen before — quality which it was unable to recreate under slightly different circumstances.
Anon1096 6mo ago
I wouldn't ask an LLM to output this directly. For an ellipse ascii I would guess that having it write a python program to generate it and then run it would work much better. Using claude sonnet 4.6 on a free account it seemed to work (sorry in advance if the hacker news formatting is horrendous) ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⣀⣠⠤⠔⠒⠒⠋⠉⠉⠉⠉⠉⠉⠉⠙⠒⠒⠢⠤⣄⣀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⢀⡠⠖⠋⠁⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠈⠙⠲⢄⡀⠀ ⣰⠋⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠙⣆ ⡇⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⢸ ⠹⣄⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⣠⠏ ⠀⠈⠑⠦⣄⡀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⢀⣠⠴⠊⠁⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠉⠙⠒⠢⠤⠤⣄⣀⣀⣀⣀⣀⣀⣀⣠⠤⠤⠔⠒⠋⠉⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀
- gus_massa 6mo ago
  You can use two spaces at the beginning of each line to trigger the "code" mode. I tried to reconstruct your drawing, but perhaps I didn't guess correctly: ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⣀⣠⠤⠔⠒⠒⠋⠉⠉⠉⠉⠉⠉⠉⠙⠒⠒⠢⠤⣄⣀ ⠀⢀⡠⠖⠋⠁⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠈⠙⠲⢄⡀ ⣰⠋⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠙⣆ ⡇⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⢸ ⠹⣄⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⣠⠏ ⠀⠈⠑⠦⣄⡀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⢀⣠⠴⠊⠁ ⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠉⠙⠒⠢⠤⠤⣄⣀⣀⣀⣀⣀⣀⣀⣠⠤⠤⠔⠒⠋⠉⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ Edit: I had to delete the two first spaces or each line and replace them with newly typed spaces from my keyboard. Perhaps there is some white-space-unicode-magic-character that is confusing HN.
  - Izkata 6mo ago
    All the whitespace appears to be a blank braille character, so it still displays correctly even without the indentation formatting: https://www.compart.com/en/unicode/U+2800 https://www.compart.com/en/unicode/U+2800 (Passed it through xxd to get the utf8 hex values)
jeremyjh 6mo ago
No, that simply is not the case. The whole point of deep learning - and the reason it has been successful in so many domains over the last 20 years - is that generalization does occur. Leela will kick your ass at chess whether she's seen the position before or not, even if her search depth is set at 1 ply. In the case of LLMs, the compression ratio alone absolutely requires this.
- IAmGraydon 6mo ago
  So what do you think is the reason it could do 30x8 and not 31x7?

ghusbands 6mo ago

Do you posit that there are enough examples of 30x8 ellipses encoded in braille online for ChatGPT to learn from but not 31x7 or 31x9 ellipses? That seems unlikely.

gorgoiler 6mo ago
Yes, or the model got lucky with the quality of output for a particular combination of my prompt and the reasoning behind its answer that lined up with something it had seen before — quality which it was unable to recreate under slightly different circumstances.

Anon1096 6mo ago

I wouldn't ask an LLM to output this directly. For an ellipse ascii I would guess that having it write a python program to generate it and then run it would work much better. Using claude sonnet 4.6 on a free account it seemed to work (sorry in advance if the hacker news formatting is horrendous) ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⣀⣠⠤⠔⠒⠒⠋⠉⠉⠉⠉⠉⠉⠉⠙⠒⠒⠢⠤⣄⣀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⢀⡠⠖⠋⠁⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠈⠙⠲⢄⡀⠀ ⣰⠋⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠙⣆ ⡇⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⢸ ⠹⣄⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⣠⠏ ⠀⠈⠑⠦⣄⡀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⢀⣠⠴⠊⠁⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠉⠙⠒⠢⠤⠤⣄⣀⣀⣀⣀⣀⣀⣀⣠⠤⠤⠔⠒⠋⠉⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀

gus_massa 6mo ago
You can use two spaces at the beginning of each line to trigger the "code" mode. I tried to reconstruct your drawing, but perhaps I didn't guess correctly: ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⣀⣠⠤⠔⠒⠒⠋⠉⠉⠉⠉⠉⠉⠉⠙⠒⠒⠢⠤⣄⣀ ⠀⢀⡠⠖⠋⠁⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠈⠙⠲⢄⡀ ⣰⠋⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠙⣆ ⡇⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⢸ ⠹⣄⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⣠⠏ ⠀⠈⠑⠦⣄⡀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⢀⣠⠴⠊⠁ ⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠉⠙⠒⠢⠤⠤⣄⣀⣀⣀⣀⣀⣀⣀⣠⠤⠤⠔⠒⠋⠉⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ Edit: I had to delete the two first spaces or each line and replace them with newly typed spaces from my keyboard. Perhaps there is some white-space-unicode-magic-character that is confusing HN.
- Izkata 6mo ago
  All the whitespace appears to be a blank braille character, so it still displays correctly even without the indentation formatting: https://www.compart.com/en/unicode/U+2800 https://www.compart.com/en/unicode/U+2800 (Passed it through xxd to get the utf8 hex values)

jeremyjh 6mo ago

No, that simply is not the case. The whole point of deep learning - and the reason it has been successful in so many domains over the last 20 years - is that generalization does occur. Leela will kick your ass at chess whether she's seen the position before or not, even if her search depth is set at 1 ply. In the case of LLMs, the compression ratio alone absolutely requires this.

IAmGraydon 6mo ago
So what do you think is the reason it could do 30x8 and not 31x7?