4 ms·

"When our grandparents built the hoover dam, the lincoln tunnel and the triborough bridge with a job guarantee that was just money for nothing - UBI with extra

by pydry 6mo ago

"When our grandparents built the hoover dam, the lincoln tunnel and the triborough bridge with a job guarantee that was just money for nothing - UBI with extra steps." ^ this would be an accurate representation of your opinion then?

fluoridation 6mo ago
That job guarantees exceptionally produce useful things doesn't mean that they don't overwhelmingly produce useless things, or things that are more expensive than they're worth.
- JumpCrisscross 6mo ago
  > doesn't mean that they don't overwhelmingly produce useless things, or things that are more expensive than they're worth One could say the same thing about all the little art projects a hypothetical society on UBI might busy itself making. The pertinent difference seems to be one about scale and co-ordination. Job guarantees say we work together–through a centralised power–to build big things. Handing everyone cash leans more towards arts and crafts and consumption.
  - fluoridation 6mo ago
    >Job guarantees say we work together–through a centralised power–to build big things. Handing everyone cash leans more towards arts and crafts and consumption. Creating busywork doesn't strike me as a particularly worthwhile endeavor, compared to idleness.
    - JumpCrisscross 6mo ago
      > Creating busywork doesn't strike me as a particularly worthwhile endeavor Make work isn’t the same as busywork. As another comment mentioned, the Hoover Dam isn’t useless busywork.
      - fluoridation 6mo ago
        And as I mentioned, the Hoover dam is also not the typical example of the kinds of projects guaranteed job programs generate.
        JumpCrisscross 6mo ago
        > the Hoover dam is also not the typical example of the kinds of projects guaranteed job programs generate NASA arguably ran its post-Apollo pre-Artemis period as a jobs program. Again, there will be waste. But there will also be waste with UBI. My suspicion is peoples’ tendency towards purposelessness will exceed bureaucrats’ tendency towards uselessness. That’s a loose hypothesis. But in its balance lies which system is more competitive (and satisfying).
        fluoridation 6mo ago
        >My suspicion is peoples’ tendency towards purposelessness will exceed bureaucrats’ tendency towards uselessness. The question we need to answer is, given infinite labor (limited over time, but unlimited given unlimited time) is there infinite meaningful work that a government can allocate it to? Eventually you will have built all the dams, tunnels, and bridges that you can usefully build. Historically what tends to happen is that work that isn't strictly necessary gets allocated. Roads that are fine get repaved, etc. I don't see how needlessly wasting energy and resources is better than paying people to spend their time however they see fit.

by pydry 6mo ago

fluoridation 6mo ago

That job guarantees exceptionally produce useful things doesn't mean that they don't overwhelmingly produce useless things, or things that are more expensive than they're worth.

JumpCrisscross 6mo ago
> doesn't mean that they don't overwhelmingly produce useless things, or things that are more expensive than they're worth One could say the same thing about all the little art projects a hypothetical society on UBI might busy itself making. The pertinent difference seems to be one about scale and co-ordination. Job guarantees say we work together–through a centralised power–to build big things. Handing everyone cash leans more towards arts and crafts and consumption.
- fluoridation 6mo ago
  >Job guarantees say we work together–through a centralised power–to build big things. Handing everyone cash leans more towards arts and crafts and consumption. Creating busywork doesn't strike me as a particularly worthwhile endeavor, compared to idleness.
  - JumpCrisscross 6mo ago
    > Creating busywork doesn't strike me as a particularly worthwhile endeavor Make work isn’t the same as busywork. As another comment mentioned, the Hoover Dam isn’t useless busywork.
    - fluoridation 6mo ago
      And as I mentioned, the Hoover dam is also not the typical example of the kinds of projects guaranteed job programs generate.
      - JumpCrisscross 6mo ago
        > the Hoover dam is also not the typical example of the kinds of projects guaranteed job programs generate NASA arguably ran its post-Apollo pre-Artemis period as a jobs program. Again, there will be waste. But there will also be waste with UBI. My suspicion is peoples’ tendency towards purposelessness will exceed bureaucrats’ tendency towards uselessness. That’s a loose hypothesis. But in its balance lies which system is more competitive (and satisfying).
        fluoridation 6mo ago
        >My suspicion is peoples’ tendency towards purposelessness will exceed bureaucrats’ tendency towards uselessness. The question we need to answer is, given infinite labor (limited over time, but unlimited given unlimited time) is there infinite meaningful work that a government can allocate it to? Eventually you will have built all the dams, tunnels, and bridges that you can usefully build. Historically what tends to happen is that work that isn't strictly necessary gets allocated. Roads that are fine get repaved, etc. I don't see how needlessly wasting energy and resources is better than paying people to spend their time however they see fit.