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I like their openness on hardware design. They open sourced their design under CC-BY-4.0 (surprisingly no NC!) in hope that it could enable reuse [1]. However,

by maxloh 6mo ago

I like their openness on hardware design. They open sourced their design under CC-BY-4.0 (surprisingly no NC!) in hope that it could enable reuse [1]. However, the whole thing is overpriced. Quoting kingsleyopara's comment 4 days ago [2], ...matching specs it comes out as more expensive than the MBP - even worse when you factor in potential discounts/sales which framework doesn't offer. Framework 13 Pro: £2064 (Ultra X7 358H, 16GB, 1TB, default ports, no adapter) Framework 13 Pro: £2264 (Ultra X7 358H, 32GB, 1TB, default ports, no adapter) MacBook Pro 14: £1699 (M5, 16GB, 1TB, no adapter) MacBook Pro 14: £2099 (M5, 32GB, 1TB, no adapter) MacBook Pro 14: £2199 (M5 Pro, 24GB, 1TB, no adapter) - added as I think it’s an even better deal [1]: https://github.com/FrameworkComputer/Framework-Laptop-13 https://github.com/FrameworkComputer/Framework-Laptop-13 [2]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47852620 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47852620

Forgeties79 6mo ago
I mean yeah they’re right but it’s not like the difference is particularly staggering. And unfortunately having control and quality runs a premium these days. Plus depending on what you’re upgrading it could very well save you money in the long run, as the parts you can replace or upgrade yourself in an MBpro are few and far between. The few things you can replace often cost an arm and a leg and require way more technical expertise than a framework demands. Also, Mac lock in. Not something to lightly ignore. Framework will run basically anything except MacOS.
- aquariusDue 6mo ago
  I'm not hating on Framework and I'm genuinely rooting for them but the last part is a bit of a weird PRO to me. What else can it run besides Windows and insert-long-list-of-Linux-distros-here compared to your run of the mill laptop? Can it run OpenBSD, NetBSD or FreeBSD without issues? How about Haiku if we're feeling crazy? Something that I think is a better PRO (if we're talking operating systems) is that from what I understand (though I might be wrong) is that you could use the Storage Expansion Card and have Windows installed on it for those moments when you have to boot into Windows in anger due to some use case not served by Linux (Adobe Reader I'm looking at you). Now that's nifty to me.
  - Forgeties79 6mo ago
    I do not have a framework so I have not looked at the entire list of what OS’s it can support as I’m only interested in pop and bazzite these days. It may very well support those you listed
    - aquariusDue 6mo ago
      Yeah, I've checked and I came across this thread https://community.frame.work/t/alternative-oses/71944/4 https://community.frame.work/t/alternative-oses/71944/4 on the Framework forums that confirms that people are actively interested in running more than Windows and Linux. The future is bright. RE: Pop and Bazzite I'm really excited for COSMIC, did you find it good enough to daily drive yet? I've been watching from the sidelines but I haven't taken the plunge to try it.
      - Forgeties79 6mo ago
        Not familiar at all! Need to take a look. First glance seems neat
legitster 6mo ago
I mean, yeah. There's a reason other companies don't focus on modularity or repairability. Its not free. We're not the target audience for this thing, but I'm at least happy there's a way people can put their money where their mouth is.
- panick21_ 6mo ago
  Apple could make a modular device to very close to the same price they do their current laptop. Its much more about size and supply chain then some minor changes in design. Maybe a little bit more extensive, but not more then 5-10%. They don't make it modular because they don't want it to be modular.
  - maxloh 6mo ago
    Repairability often comes at the cost of size, weight, production cost, or a combination of them.
    - panick21_ 6mo ago
      Again, that may be true but its a question of how much. And in some cases, it can also go into another direction. I maintain that apple could make a modular repairable device within a few % of all those things.
biddit 6mo ago
Comparing Apples to Oranges. Apple only makes disposable devices now. They're a megacorp can negotiate massive discounts at every stage of the supply chain. I've helped several people in the last few years set up new Macs, replacing ones that were only 1-2 years old, because they ran out of storage. Additionally, the comparison doesn't even hold true when you need more than the base configs from Apple, given their ridiculous upgrade pricing. I'm writing this on a $6,000USD M3 MBP with 128gb/4tb. It would have been substantially cheaper to build out on a Framework.
- aaomidi 6mo ago
  > Apple only makes disposable devices now. This is genuinely hilarious to say this with a straight face
  - afavour 6mo ago
    IMO it’s a reasonable point to make when compared to something like the Framework. And it took legal action to get them to offer battery replacements for iPhones, I don’t think you can really claim they’re passionate about component reuse.
  - frantathefranta 6mo ago
    They are disposable, they just last way longer than any of their competitors. They are not on the level of upgradability as the Framework (anymore).
    - spankibalt 6mo ago
      > "[...] they just last way longer than any of their competitors." Citations, please. In the meantime, an anecdote: My oldest modern-era (64-bit) daily driver is one I use heavily since 15 years. An HP, 16 or 17 years old. The only component that ever caked-out in that bird was the original mechanical hard drive, which died just this year. Similar experiences with IBM/Lenovo, Panasonic and Fujitsu. Apple laptops I don't even look at for they don't offer anything I need.
Wowfunhappy 6mo ago
Even putting aside the whole repairability thing, with the Mac you’re stuck with Apple Silicon. Apple’s processors are mostly awesome, of course, but using one does mean you’re stuck with macOS—Asahi Linux seems to be a ways away from M5 support.
endominus 6mo ago
Cost of the Macbook Pro 14 in 2031: another £1999 Cost of the Framework 13 upgrade kit in 2031: £499 The point of the upgradability and openness of the design is that you only have to pay that cost once, instead of every time you buy a laptop. How much will it cost to upgrade a MacBook's RAM if you decide you need more after a year or two? £2099?
- cogman10 6mo ago
  Yup. Primary reason I just pulled the trigger for framework. They've proven that they'll keep upgradability going over a few generations which means I'll be buying all my updates from them.
- bigyabai 6mo ago
  Repair cost is worth noting too. If your keyboard breaks: Macbook Pro - You pay for a new topcase assembly Framework Pro - You pay a new keyboard
  - cromka 6mo ago
    Macbook Pro M2 topcase with a battery here in Poland is 80 USD. Pro M3/M4 is 110 USD. Framework 13 keyboard is 60 USD. There really isn't that much difference, and you're getting a free, used battery.
- growt 6mo ago
  Well you can sell your old MacBook. And they hold their value pretty well. So I don’t know if framework would actually come out ahead financially.
  - loloquwowndueo 6mo ago
    What’s the advantage of buying a used MacBook if, since they hold their value well, it won’t be much cheaper than a new one?
    - skippyboxedhero 6mo ago
ranger_danger 6mo ago
> the whole thing is overpriced Economy of scale... they cannot make (or sell) anywhere near as many as Apple does, so of course it's going to be more expensive. Just like that "Made in USA" grill brush that costs 75 dollars (but guess where the machines that make it come from).
- maxloh 6mo ago
  IMO, Apple is already the standard of overpriced compared to other laptop vendors, and Framework is even more overpriced than the overpricer!
  - big-and-small 6mo ago
    Macbooks were not overpriced since M1 Air released in 2020. Of course Apple was not competing in low-end segment back then, but $1200-$1400 M1 just outperformed all the competitors for years. Now with Neo release they basically outplayed everyone in low-end segment. Framework offer is completely different - they sell you upgradable computer that supports your right to repair.
h14h 6mo ago
What sells me on it is I get to take a spare Gen4 m.2 ssd out of my gaming PC I wasn't fully utilizing instead of paying for 1TB of storage. Being able to drive the price down by re-using parts I already have is a pretty big selling point, IMO. Also, I think Apple is benefitting from scale, since they're able to maintain the (usually too high) storage and memory prices they've had for years. At this moment in time, framework have the misfortune of being forced to pass inflated wholesale prices onto the consumer. Make this comparison one calendar year ago and the F13 Pro could very easily beat the MBP on price spec-for-spec.
Rebelgecko 6mo ago
SSD and RAM prices are wacky nowadays, but when I got my DIY framework 13, it was MUCH cheaper than the apple equivalent if you wanted more than the minimum specs (in my case, 32GB RAM + 2TB SSD). Main downside was software/firmware that didn't work well with Framework hardware
NooneAtAll3 6mo ago
my main eyebrow raise on price comes from pre-built being cheaper than DIY version how does that even work?
dangus 6mo ago
I had to sell my 2016 MacBook Pro because Apple made a defective keyboard design and I had no recourse other than having it replaced with the same defective design. This repair required the replacement of the entire top case of the computer including a number of unrelated components. Without the widespread negative press and repair program, this repair would have cost hundreds of dollars. I am willing to pay more for a product made by a company whose respect for its customers manifests itself in the design of the product. I am willing to pay more for a product that has first-class support for non-commercial operating systems that aren’t trying to collect data and sell services. Lately it’s become obvious to me that Linux is a better desktop experience than macOS or Windows. Liquid Glass ruined my Mac, and Windows is…well, I only ever ran it so I could play games. Sure, Apple is cheaper, because they make more money selling you services than selling Macs and iPads combined. These are services that are advertised to you within basic settings panels of the operating system, including apps like News that cannot be uninstalled (even Microsoft allows you to uninstall apps like that!) I don’t want to pay less for a Mac that feels slick during the warranty period but has no upgrade path and no reasonably priced way to repair even minor issues.
dethos 6mo ago
I would still get a Framework rather than a MacBook. A couple of hundred dollars for the openness, repairability, and upgradability is a great deal.
Rapzid 6mo ago
The MacBook's aren't a fungible alternative as they lock you into MacOS effectively and don't use Intel and AMD processors. Also, I'm not sure what a good alternative is these days to the Framework 13 Pro. I DO NOT USE GLOSS SCREENS on productivity laptops(the only reason I have a laptop). Heck, my LG OLED monitor and top-end Samsung s95f OLED TV are matte as well due to the lighting in my space; I like light! That means any time I'm looking at laptops I've having to re-asses the landscape because year-to-year manufactures flip-flop between screen finish even in their productivity lines. The Asus Zenbook looks good, but it's all gloss screens. I'm looking at the latest crop of Thinkbook and they don't even have the AMD 350 as an option right now; and I'm not sure about the display finish. It's not so easy to compare like-for-like when it's apples and oranges.
kelnos 6mo ago
This always seems to come up in discussions about Framework. The extra cost is more than made up in not having to buy a full new computer every few years, and in being able to swap out the keyboard for $40 if it breaks.
- cromka 6mo ago
  Did you know you can replace Macbook keyboard if it brakes, for roughly similar money?

by maxloh 6mo ago

Forgeties79 6mo ago

I mean yeah they’re right but it’s not like the difference is particularly staggering. And unfortunately having control and quality runs a premium these days. Plus depending on what you’re upgrading it could very well save you money in the long run, as the parts you can replace or upgrade yourself in an MBpro are few and far between. The few things you can replace often cost an arm and a leg and require way more technical expertise than a framework demands. Also, Mac lock in. Not something to lightly ignore. Framework will run basically anything except MacOS.

aquariusDue 6mo ago
I'm not hating on Framework and I'm genuinely rooting for them but the last part is a bit of a weird PRO to me. What else can it run besides Windows and insert-long-list-of-Linux-distros-here compared to your run of the mill laptop? Can it run OpenBSD, NetBSD or FreeBSD without issues? How about Haiku if we're feeling crazy? Something that I think is a better PRO (if we're talking operating systems) is that from what I understand (though I might be wrong) is that you could use the Storage Expansion Card and have Windows installed on it for those moments when you have to boot into Windows in anger due to some use case not served by Linux (Adobe Reader I'm looking at you). Now that's nifty to me.
- Forgeties79 6mo ago
  I do not have a framework so I have not looked at the entire list of what OS’s it can support as I’m only interested in pop and bazzite these days. It may very well support those you listed
  - aquariusDue 6mo ago
    Yeah, I've checked and I came across this thread https://community.frame.work/t/alternative-oses/71944/4 https://community.frame.work/t/alternative-oses/71944/4 on the Framework forums that confirms that people are actively interested in running more than Windows and Linux. The future is bright. RE: Pop and Bazzite I'm really excited for COSMIC, did you find it good enough to daily drive yet? I've been watching from the sidelines but I haven't taken the plunge to try it.
    - Forgeties79 6mo ago
      Not familiar at all! Need to take a look. First glance seems neat

legitster 6mo ago

I mean, yeah. There's a reason other companies don't focus on modularity or repairability. Its not free. We're not the target audience for this thing, but I'm at least happy there's a way people can put their money where their mouth is.

panick21_ 6mo ago
Apple could make a modular device to very close to the same price they do their current laptop. Its much more about size and supply chain then some minor changes in design. Maybe a little bit more extensive, but not more then 5-10%. They don't make it modular because they don't want it to be modular.
- maxloh 6mo ago
  Repairability often comes at the cost of size, weight, production cost, or a combination of them.
  - panick21_ 6mo ago
    Again, that may be true but its a question of how much. And in some cases, it can also go into another direction. I maintain that apple could make a modular repairable device within a few % of all those things.

biddit 6mo ago

Comparing Apples to Oranges. Apple only makes disposable devices now. They're a megacorp can negotiate massive discounts at every stage of the supply chain. I've helped several people in the last few years set up new Macs, replacing ones that were only 1-2 years old, because they ran out of storage. Additionally, the comparison doesn't even hold true when you need more than the base configs from Apple, given their ridiculous upgrade pricing. I'm writing this on a $6,000USD M3 MBP with 128gb/4tb. It would have been substantially cheaper to build out on a Framework.

aaomidi 6mo ago
> Apple only makes disposable devices now. This is genuinely hilarious to say this with a straight face
- afavour 6mo ago
  IMO it’s a reasonable point to make when compared to something like the Framework. And it took legal action to get them to offer battery replacements for iPhones, I don’t think you can really claim they’re passionate about component reuse.
- frantathefranta 6mo ago
  They are disposable, they just last way longer than any of their competitors. They are not on the level of upgradability as the Framework (anymore).
  - spankibalt 6mo ago
    > "[...] they just last way longer than any of their competitors." Citations, please. In the meantime, an anecdote: My oldest modern-era (64-bit) daily driver is one I use heavily since 15 years. An HP, 16 or 17 years old. The only component that ever caked-out in that bird was the original mechanical hard drive, which died just this year. Similar experiences with IBM/Lenovo, Panasonic and Fujitsu. Apple laptops I don't even look at for they don't offer anything I need.

Wowfunhappy 6mo ago

Even putting aside the whole repairability thing, with the Mac you’re stuck with Apple Silicon. Apple’s processors are mostly awesome, of course, but using one does mean you’re stuck with macOS—Asahi Linux seems to be a ways away from M5 support.

endominus 6mo ago

Cost of the Macbook Pro 14 in 2031: another £1999 Cost of the Framework 13 upgrade kit in 2031: £499 The point of the upgradability and openness of the design is that you only have to pay that cost once, instead of every time you buy a laptop. How much will it cost to upgrade a MacBook's RAM if you decide you need more after a year or two? £2099?

cogman10 6mo ago
Yup. Primary reason I just pulled the trigger for framework. They've proven that they'll keep upgradability going over a few generations which means I'll be buying all my updates from them.
bigyabai 6mo ago
Repair cost is worth noting too. If your keyboard breaks: Macbook Pro - You pay for a new topcase assembly Framework Pro - You pay a new keyboard
- cromka 6mo ago
  Macbook Pro M2 topcase with a battery here in Poland is 80 USD. Pro M3/M4 is 110 USD. Framework 13 keyboard is 60 USD. There really isn't that much difference, and you're getting a free, used battery.
growt 6mo ago
Well you can sell your old MacBook. And they hold their value pretty well. So I don’t know if framework would actually come out ahead financially.
- loloquwowndueo 6mo ago
  What’s the advantage of buying a used MacBook if, since they hold their value well, it won’t be much cheaper than a new one?
  - skippyboxedhero 6mo ago

ranger_danger 6mo ago

> the whole thing is overpriced Economy of scale... they cannot make (or sell) anywhere near as many as Apple does, so of course it's going to be more expensive. Just like that "Made in USA" grill brush that costs 75 dollars (but guess where the machines that make it come from).

maxloh 6mo ago
IMO, Apple is already the standard of overpriced compared to other laptop vendors, and Framework is even more overpriced than the overpricer!
- big-and-small 6mo ago
  Macbooks were not overpriced since M1 Air released in 2020. Of course Apple was not competing in low-end segment back then, but $1200-$1400 M1 just outperformed all the competitors for years. Now with Neo release they basically outplayed everyone in low-end segment. Framework offer is completely different - they sell you upgradable computer that supports your right to repair.

h14h 6mo ago

What sells me on it is I get to take a spare Gen4 m.2 ssd out of my gaming PC I wasn't fully utilizing instead of paying for 1TB of storage. Being able to drive the price down by re-using parts I already have is a pretty big selling point, IMO. Also, I think Apple is benefitting from scale, since they're able to maintain the (usually too high) storage and memory prices they've had for years. At this moment in time, framework have the misfortune of being forced to pass inflated wholesale prices onto the consumer. Make this comparison one calendar year ago and the F13 Pro could very easily beat the MBP on price spec-for-spec.

Rebelgecko 6mo ago

SSD and RAM prices are wacky nowadays, but when I got my DIY framework 13, it was MUCH cheaper than the apple equivalent if you wanted more than the minimum specs (in my case, 32GB RAM + 2TB SSD). Main downside was software/firmware that didn't work well with Framework hardware

NooneAtAll3 6mo ago

my main eyebrow raise on price comes from pre-built being cheaper than DIY version how does that even work?

dangus 6mo ago

I had to sell my 2016 MacBook Pro because Apple made a defective keyboard design and I had no recourse other than having it replaced with the same defective design. This repair required the replacement of the entire top case of the computer including a number of unrelated components. Without the widespread negative press and repair program, this repair would have cost hundreds of dollars. I am willing to pay more for a product made by a company whose respect for its customers manifests itself in the design of the product. I am willing to pay more for a product that has first-class support for non-commercial operating systems that aren’t trying to collect data and sell services. Lately it’s become obvious to me that Linux is a better desktop experience than macOS or Windows. Liquid Glass ruined my Mac, and Windows is…well, I only ever ran it so I could play games. Sure, Apple is cheaper, because they make more money selling you services than selling Macs and iPads combined. These are services that are advertised to you within basic settings panels of the operating system, including apps like News that cannot be uninstalled (even Microsoft allows you to uninstall apps like that!) I don’t want to pay less for a Mac that feels slick during the warranty period but has no upgrade path and no reasonably priced way to repair even minor issues.

dethos 6mo ago

I would still get a Framework rather than a MacBook. A couple of hundred dollars for the openness, repairability, and upgradability is a great deal.

Rapzid 6mo ago

The MacBook's aren't a fungible alternative as they lock you into MacOS effectively and don't use Intel and AMD processors. Also, I'm not sure what a good alternative is these days to the Framework 13 Pro. I DO NOT USE GLOSS SCREENS on productivity laptops(the only reason I have a laptop). Heck, my LG OLED monitor and top-end Samsung s95f OLED TV are matte as well due to the lighting in my space; I like light! That means any time I'm looking at laptops I've having to re-asses the landscape because year-to-year manufactures flip-flop between screen finish even in their productivity lines. The Asus Zenbook looks good, but it's all gloss screens. I'm looking at the latest crop of Thinkbook and they don't even have the AMD 350 as an option right now; and I'm not sure about the display finish. It's not so easy to compare like-for-like when it's apples and oranges.

kelnos 6mo ago

This always seems to come up in discussions about Framework. The extra cost is more than made up in not having to buy a full new computer every few years, and in being able to swap out the keyboard for $40 if it breaks.

cromka 6mo ago
Did you know you can replace Macbook keyboard if it brakes, for roughly similar money?