6 ms·

Too bad this is 10Gbase-T, that energy-wasting hot-running garbage needs to die sooner rather than later. Good thing the ranges for 25Gbase-T are short enough

by eqvinox 6mo ago

Too bad this is 10Gbase-T, that energy-wasting hot-running garbage needs to die sooner rather than later. Good thing the ranges for 25Gbase-T are short enough to make it impractical for home use. (Fibre is nowhere near as "sensitive" as some people believe.)

zrm 6mo ago
The problem with fibre isn't the sensitivity. It's that most endpoints have a 1Gbps copper port on them and then Cat6A ports can be used with the common devices but also allow you to add or relocate 10Gbps devices without rewiring the building again.
- HappMacDonald 6mo ago
  However — unlike copper twisted pair — the bandwidth current fiber media can carry is nearly limited by nothing but the optics at each end.
  - zrm 6mo ago
    That doesn't solve the chicken and egg problem. What probably would is something like having PCIe and USB to 1Gbps fiber adapters that cost $5.
    - simoncion 6mo ago
      You've been able to get Intel X520 NICs [0], with transceivers included for ~40USD on Newegg for a long time. This is a little more than double the price of Newegg's cheapest single-port 10/100/1000 copper card, but even the cheapest available such card is three times your "chicken and egg"-solving price point. I suspect the combination of the absence of cheap-o all-in-one AP/router combo boxes with any SFP+ cages and fiber cabling's reputation of being extremely fragile have much more to do with its scarcity at the extremely low end of networking gear than anything else. [0] This is a two-port SFP+ PCI Express card
      - zrm 6mo ago
        You can get copper ones for $5.99 (quality may vary): https://www.amazon.com/1000Mbps-Network-Performance-Gigabit-Ethernet/dp/B08CGKQCQR https://www.amazon.com/1000Mbps-Network-Performance-Gigabit-... https://www.amazon.com/SALAN-Ethernet-Portable-Internet-Converter/dp/B0FSKX4FPS https://www.amazon.com/SALAN-Ethernet-Portable-Internet-Conv... But it's not competing with those, it's competing with the copper port which is already built into most devices. Another thing that would work is something like this (also $5.99), but with one of the ports as fibre: https://www.amazon.com/Gigabit-Ethernet-Splitter-1000Mbps-Internet/dp/B0DQB3G5N7 https://www.amazon.com/Gigabit-Ethernet-Splitter-1000Mbps-In... The point being you need some cheap way to plug in existing copper devices if you run fibre to the endpoints. This plus $5 for a transceiver is pretty close at $15: https://www.amazon.com/Gigabit-Ethernet-Converter-Auto-Negotiation-Terminal/dp/B0FXM8HBZJ https://www.amazon.com/Gigabit-Ethernet-Converter-Auto-Negot... But +$15 and an extra wall outlet per endpoint is still an inconvenience, and if a two-port device with its own power supply can be made for $15 then where is the PCIe/USB to fibre adapter for <$10?
        simoncion 6mo ago
        > (quality may vary): Yep. Good NICs last for approximately forever, life's way too short to deal with maybe-flaky NICs, and the price difference between the Amazon Special and something that's going to be reliable is -what- two big boxes of Cheerios? Two dozen eggs? Not. Worth it. > But it's not competing with those, it's competing with the copper port which is already built into most devices. Correct! That's part of why I was so very surprised to see you suggesting that extremely cheap PCI Express and USB adapters would "solve the chicken and egg problem". > The point being you need some cheap way to plug in existing copper devices if you run fibre to the endpoints. That's called a multi-port switch. Netgear sells five-port gigabit ones for like 20 USD. Switches that have two SFP+ cages and eight copper gigabit ports [0] are six times the price of a cheap-o Netgear switch, but are something that's going to last at least a decade. It's also pretty uncommon to find SOHO switches that have SFP+ cages and don't have at least one fixed copper port. > This plus $5 for a transceiver is pretty close at $15: If you're connecting a single device, why the hell would you use that when you could slap a copper SFP or SFP+ module in the switch's cage and run a cable? If you're connecting multiple devices, then either install multiple copper modules and run multiple cables, run multiple copper cables from fixed copper ports on the switch, or put a switch where the existing copper devices are. [0] <https://mikrotik.com/product/css610_8g_2s_in https://mikrotik.com/product/css610_8g_2s_in>
- mschuster91 6mo ago
  In practice though 10G via copper requires pretty perfect terminations. The slightest error leads to crosstalk issues.
  - JonChesterfield 6mo ago
    Ymmv. I've got a mix of cheap premade patch cables and some I crimped from solid core, all cat5e, all holding 10gbe totally happily. I suspect that only works because they're a meter or two long but that reaches across the rack.
  - userbinator 6mo ago
    NICs have DSPs to cancel out crosstalk.
spockz 6mo ago
Is the energy consumption inherent to 10Gbase-T? Or is it that 1Gbit nics have been around forever and optimised ad infinitum? To be fair, the power consumption is also my biggest gripe with my WiFi 6 AP, they run extremely hot.
- eqvinox 6mo ago
  It's inherently worse than anything fibre, or even DAC cables (which are kinda cheating.) It needs a shitton of analog "magic" to work with the bandwidth limitations of copper cabling.
  - teleforce 6mo ago
    Just wondering why you considered DAC cables cheating, is the analog magic mainly the impedance matching or I'm missing something?
    - eqvinox 6mo ago
      DAC cables are cheating because due to the extremely short range limits (5m, 7m if you're very lucky) they can just put the 10Gbase-R/SFI signal straight on a pair of Copper at 10.3125 Gbaud. 10Gbase-T, to try to get to 100m, throws FEC on it and converts the signal to 4x PAM-16/THP at 800 Mbd, and then uses 4 copper pairs *bidirectionally*. That's the analog magic.
  - spockz 6mo ago
    Okay. Sure. But why do we notice that on 10GbaseT and on 1? Is there some signal processing which is exponentially expensive at faster speeds? I’ve seen cards using 25W per port.
    - eqvinox 6mo ago
      cf. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47908287 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47908287 Yes, that signal processing is massively more expensive. A 10Gbase-T PHY is a sophisticated DSP. Not sure if the power needs are exponential, given we only have a few data points, but it's in the ballpark. (1000base-T PHYs are already DSPs, but nowhere near as sophisticated)
userbinator 6mo ago
Good thing the ranges for 25Gbase-T are short enough to make it impractical for home use. Anyone who talks about 25GBASE-T like it actually exists, doesn't know anything about what they're talking about.
- eqvinox 6mo ago
  Or is speaking in future terms. 40Gbase-T will never exist, sure. 25Gbase-T very likely will.
ciupicri 6mo ago
How easy can an ordinary home user install fiber in his home compared to a good old wire?
- markonen 6mo ago
  There’s nothing hard about it if you can run pre-terminated patches. Which you typically can since the connectors are so small.
  - ciupicri 6mo ago
    So you're saying users could buy stuff like this? "25m (82ft) Fiber Patch Cable, 1 Fiber, SC APC Simplex to SC APC Simplex, Single Mode (OS2), Riser (OFNR), 2.0mm, Tight-Buffered, Yellow", https://www.fs.com/eu-en/products/282133.html?attribute=103147&id=3948854 https://www.fs.com/eu-en/products/282133.html?attribute=1031... Heck, I don't even know what I should buy for 10G SFP+ ports and a distance of say 30 meters. Guess, I'm back to CAT6 :-)
    - markonen 6mo ago
      LC connectors are smaller and what the actual SFP+ modules typically have. If you want to run a link with just one fiber, you need BiDi optics. FS does custom multi-fiber cable assemblies too (beyond the duplex patches which is basically the standard), and they can also include pull eyes on them if that’d be helpful. Single mode is a good choice, common wisdom used to be multimode for short runs but the single mode stuff is not much more expensive and the standard 10km optics will likely brute force the signal over any mistakes like cable kinks or dirt on the connectors.
    - eqvinox 6mo ago
      > Guess, I'm back to CAT6 :-) If you learned what you need for 10GbT you can learn what you need for 10GbLR. Which is: LC connector, PC or UPC, duplex, OS1 or OS2, and SFP+ modules saying "LR". Any of the following is wrong: SC, FC, LSH, E2000, ST, APC, simplex, OM[1-5], "SR" or "ER" SFPs. And that's short enough.
- 6mo ago
wpm 6mo ago
Nothing in my home has SFP ports other than my routers and my primary network switch (two, hooked up to the routers). All of my computers and USB adapters for laptops expect RJ45 at 10/100/1000/2500/5000/10000 Mbps. None of my runs are over 50 ft. So IDGAF about how much "better" fiber is. It's unfathomably worse when you factor in the cost and work I'd need to do to convert everything and every new adapter I'd have to buy or build (can I get an $80 USB SFP adapter? Do I have a cable?). The extra marginal cost in electricity will take longer than the lifetime of my equipment to exceed the cost of redoing everything.

by eqvinox 6mo ago

zrm 6mo ago

The problem with fibre isn't the sensitivity. It's that most endpoints have a 1Gbps copper port on them and then Cat6A ports can be used with the common devices but also allow you to add or relocate 10Gbps devices without rewiring the building again.

HappMacDonald 6mo ago
However — unlike copper twisted pair — the bandwidth current fiber media can carry is nearly limited by nothing but the optics at each end.
- zrm 6mo ago
  That doesn't solve the chicken and egg problem. What probably would is something like having PCIe and USB to 1Gbps fiber adapters that cost $5.
  - simoncion 6mo ago
    You've been able to get Intel X520 NICs [0], with transceivers included for ~40USD on Newegg for a long time. This is a little more than double the price of Newegg's cheapest single-port 10/100/1000 copper card, but even the cheapest available such card is three times your "chicken and egg"-solving price point. I suspect the combination of the absence of cheap-o all-in-one AP/router combo boxes with any SFP+ cages and fiber cabling's reputation of being extremely fragile have much more to do with its scarcity at the extremely low end of networking gear than anything else. [0] This is a two-port SFP+ PCI Express card
    - zrm 6mo ago
      You can get copper ones for $5.99 (quality may vary): https://www.amazon.com/1000Mbps-Network-Performance-Gigabit-Ethernet/dp/B08CGKQCQR https://www.amazon.com/1000Mbps-Network-Performance-Gigabit-... https://www.amazon.com/SALAN-Ethernet-Portable-Internet-Converter/dp/B0FSKX4FPS https://www.amazon.com/SALAN-Ethernet-Portable-Internet-Conv... But it's not competing with those, it's competing with the copper port which is already built into most devices. Another thing that would work is something like this (also $5.99), but with one of the ports as fibre: https://www.amazon.com/Gigabit-Ethernet-Splitter-1000Mbps-Internet/dp/B0DQB3G5N7 https://www.amazon.com/Gigabit-Ethernet-Splitter-1000Mbps-In... The point being you need some cheap way to plug in existing copper devices if you run fibre to the endpoints. This plus $5 for a transceiver is pretty close at $15: https://www.amazon.com/Gigabit-Ethernet-Converter-Auto-Negotiation-Terminal/dp/B0FXM8HBZJ https://www.amazon.com/Gigabit-Ethernet-Converter-Auto-Negot... But +$15 and an extra wall outlet per endpoint is still an inconvenience, and if a two-port device with its own power supply can be made for $15 then where is the PCIe/USB to fibre adapter for <$10?
      - simoncion 6mo ago
        > (quality may vary): Yep. Good NICs last for approximately forever, life's way too short to deal with maybe-flaky NICs, and the price difference between the Amazon Special and something that's going to be reliable is -what- two big boxes of Cheerios? Two dozen eggs? Not. Worth it. > But it's not competing with those, it's competing with the copper port which is already built into most devices. Correct! That's part of why I was so very surprised to see you suggesting that extremely cheap PCI Express and USB adapters would "solve the chicken and egg problem". > The point being you need some cheap way to plug in existing copper devices if you run fibre to the endpoints. That's called a multi-port switch. Netgear sells five-port gigabit ones for like 20 USD. Switches that have two SFP+ cages and eight copper gigabit ports [0] are six times the price of a cheap-o Netgear switch, but are something that's going to last at least a decade. It's also pretty uncommon to find SOHO switches that have SFP+ cages and don't have at least one fixed copper port. > This plus $5 for a transceiver is pretty close at $15: If you're connecting a single device, why the hell would you use that when you could slap a copper SFP or SFP+ module in the switch's cage and run a cable? If you're connecting multiple devices, then either install multiple copper modules and run multiple cables, run multiple copper cables from fixed copper ports on the switch, or put a switch where the existing copper devices are. [0] <https://mikrotik.com/product/css610_8g_2s_in https://mikrotik.com/product/css610_8g_2s_in>
mschuster91 6mo ago
In practice though 10G via copper requires pretty perfect terminations. The slightest error leads to crosstalk issues.
- JonChesterfield 6mo ago
  Ymmv. I've got a mix of cheap premade patch cables and some I crimped from solid core, all cat5e, all holding 10gbe totally happily. I suspect that only works because they're a meter or two long but that reaches across the rack.
- userbinator 6mo ago
  NICs have DSPs to cancel out crosstalk.

spockz 6mo ago

Is the energy consumption inherent to 10Gbase-T? Or is it that 1Gbit nics have been around forever and optimised ad infinitum? To be fair, the power consumption is also my biggest gripe with my WiFi 6 AP, they run extremely hot.

eqvinox 6mo ago
It's inherently worse than anything fibre, or even DAC cables (which are kinda cheating.) It needs a shitton of analog "magic" to work with the bandwidth limitations of copper cabling.
- teleforce 6mo ago
  Just wondering why you considered DAC cables cheating, is the analog magic mainly the impedance matching or I'm missing something?
  - eqvinox 6mo ago
    DAC cables are cheating because due to the extremely short range limits (5m, 7m if you're very lucky) they can just put the 10Gbase-R/SFI signal straight on a pair of Copper at 10.3125 Gbaud. 10Gbase-T, to try to get to 100m, throws FEC on it and converts the signal to 4x PAM-16/THP at 800 Mbd, and then uses 4 copper pairs *bidirectionally*. That's the analog magic.
- spockz 6mo ago
  Okay. Sure. But why do we notice that on 10GbaseT and on 1? Is there some signal processing which is exponentially expensive at faster speeds? I’ve seen cards using 25W per port.
  - eqvinox 6mo ago
    cf. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47908287 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47908287 Yes, that signal processing is massively more expensive. A 10Gbase-T PHY is a sophisticated DSP. Not sure if the power needs are exponential, given we only have a few data points, but it's in the ballpark. (1000base-T PHYs are already DSPs, but nowhere near as sophisticated)

userbinator 6mo ago

Good thing the ranges for 25Gbase-T are short enough to make it impractical for home use. Anyone who talks about 25GBASE-T like it actually exists, doesn't know anything about what they're talking about.

eqvinox 6mo ago
Or is speaking in future terms. 40Gbase-T will never exist, sure. 25Gbase-T very likely will.

ciupicri 6mo ago

How easy can an ordinary home user install fiber in his home compared to a good old wire?

markonen 6mo ago
There’s nothing hard about it if you can run pre-terminated patches. Which you typically can since the connectors are so small.
- ciupicri 6mo ago
  So you're saying users could buy stuff like this? "25m (82ft) Fiber Patch Cable, 1 Fiber, SC APC Simplex to SC APC Simplex, Single Mode (OS2), Riser (OFNR), 2.0mm, Tight-Buffered, Yellow", https://www.fs.com/eu-en/products/282133.html?attribute=103147&id=3948854 https://www.fs.com/eu-en/products/282133.html?attribute=1031... Heck, I don't even know what I should buy for 10G SFP+ ports and a distance of say 30 meters. Guess, I'm back to CAT6 :-)
  - markonen 6mo ago
    LC connectors are smaller and what the actual SFP+ modules typically have. If you want to run a link with just one fiber, you need BiDi optics. FS does custom multi-fiber cable assemblies too (beyond the duplex patches which is basically the standard), and they can also include pull eyes on them if that’d be helpful. Single mode is a good choice, common wisdom used to be multimode for short runs but the single mode stuff is not much more expensive and the standard 10km optics will likely brute force the signal over any mistakes like cable kinks or dirt on the connectors.
  - eqvinox 6mo ago
    > Guess, I'm back to CAT6 :-) If you learned what you need for 10GbT you can learn what you need for 10GbLR. Which is: LC connector, PC or UPC, duplex, OS1 or OS2, and SFP+ modules saying "LR". Any of the following is wrong: SC, FC, LSH, E2000, ST, APC, simplex, OM[1-5], "SR" or "ER" SFPs. And that's short enough.
6mo ago

wpm 6mo ago

Nothing in my home has SFP ports other than my routers and my primary network switch (two, hooked up to the routers). All of my computers and USB adapters for laptops expect RJ45 at 10/100/1000/2500/5000/10000 Mbps. None of my runs are over 50 ft. So IDGAF about how much "better" fiber is. It's unfathomably worse when you factor in the cost and work I'd need to do to convert everything and every new adapter I'd have to buy or build (can I get an $80 USB SFP adapter? Do I have a cable?). The extra marginal cost in electricity will take longer than the lifetime of my equipment to exceed the cost of redoing everything.