6 ms·

> Just because America is doing bad things doesn't mean China is good, or vice versa. Of course not. When it comes to SOTA LLMs you have the choice between two

> Just because America is doing bad things doesn't mean China is good, or vice versa. Of course not. When it comes to SOTA LLMs you have the choice between two bad options. For many, choosing the Chinese option is just choosing the lesser of two evils (and it's much cheaper).

eloisant 5mo ago
Why people always dismiss the European option? Mistral is right here, their models are in-between the cheap to run Chinese models and top of the line performances of US frontier models.
- 3s 5mo ago
  It’s not top of the line and mostly not open source
- john_minsk 5mo ago
  For a lot of people in the world Europe = USA
  - benterix 5mo ago
    But this makes zero sense. Two different continents, values systems, law systems. Not to mention the current USA administration is openly hostile to Europe. So why would anyone confuse the two.
    - quantum_state 5mo ago
      Europe will not be independent as long as there are US military bases there. Saying otherwise would be kidding oneself.
      - benterix 5mo ago
        You are aware that the number of American soldiers in these bases is symbolic and their presence is meant to be a deterrent for Russia?
    - coliveira 5mo ago
      Europe is at the mercy of the USA. Any difference in posture is due to local politics which can swing local elections, but European leaders are willing and eager to do what the US wants.
      - benterix 5mo ago
        Sure, I'd agree with that a few years ago. Nowadays when the USA asks for something like just using their military bases for refueling, they're laughed at.
- Lapel2742 5mo ago
  > Why people always dismiss the European option? Mistral is good for many tasks where you do not need SOTA or near SOTA performance. They cannot compete if you do.
- roenxi 5mo ago
  People are probably assuming that the trends from the last few decades continue. The EU fumbled semiconductors, production went to Asia. The EU fumbled the software revolution, the successes mainly came from the US. They fumbled the transition to smartphones despite the Nokia advantage. They missed tablets; seemed like they just didn't have the industrial vigour to make a serious attempt. The safe money is they are going to be an also-ran for the AI revolution. They did manage to force Apple to switch from using lightening connectors to USB though so their wins can't just be laughed off. Maybe they'll surprise us but it'd be a welcome change from their usual routine.
  - sofixa 5mo ago
    > The EU fumbled semiconductors, production went to Asia Production of state of the art semiconductors, yes. NXP, STMicro, Infineon are still there and massive in automotive, industrial, card chips, etc. > The EU fumbled the software revolution, the successes mainly came from the US Worldwide massive success, mostly yes. Most European countries have their local or regional success stories though. > The safe money is they are going to be an also-ran for the AI revolution Not really. Past performances, or lack thereof, are not indicative of future ones. Mistral are pretty good and selling well in the enterprise space. Some of the best voice models are coming from France (Kyutai).
    - joe_mamba 5mo ago
      >Production of state of the art semiconductors, yes. If you fall out of the state of the art then the claim of EU fumbling semiconductors is correct. The richest block in the world should settle for no less than being state of the art. Anything less is fumbling it. >NXP, STMicro, Infineon are still there and massive in automotive, industrial, card chips, etc. The EU semi companies you listed are absent from the state of the art and only make low margin commodity parts that don't have moats. ASML exists but is not enough for claiming EU superiority since the EUV light source is still US IP designed and manufactured. And one top company is too little. >Worldwide massive success, mostly yes. Worldwide success is where the big money is, and you need a lot of money for cutting edge research and experimentation to build the future successes. Hence the claim of EU fumbling software is correct. >Most European countries have their local or regional success stories though. EU mom and pop shops aren't gonna make enough money to be able to afford risky ambitious ventures the likes of FAANGs have. Which is probably why you work for Hashicorp, a large global US company, and not some local EU company.
- GistNoesis 5mo ago
  Europe is always 10 years ahead in all theoretical aspects. Then they need money. So most of the talent flee or get bought, typical example in machine learning space is huggingface or fchollet. Then European government plays catch-up and offer subventions, but at the same time makes rules to make sure companies don't threaten US dominance, or Asian manufacturing. Mistral is typically playing catch the subsidy game. Europe is constructed so that it can't win, but can "pick" the winner between scylla and charybdis, pest and cholera.
  - joe_mamba 5mo ago
    >Europe is constructed so that it can't win, but can "pick" the winner between scylla and charybdis, pest and cholera. Because they have no spine and no leverage/muscle on the international stage to throw their weight around and make sure they get what's best for themselves at the expense of everyone else the same way US, China, etc do. They play the international nice guy that just ends up being the doormat everyone takes advantage of, being at the mercy of Russian and Azeri gas, at the mercy of US tech, energy and defence, and at the mercy of Chinese manufacturing after dismantling their own manufacturing, at the mercy of Turkey for migration enforcement, etc so they can't do anything radical that upsets their "partners", or that makes their virtue signaling policies look bad, or risk massive repercussions they aren't prepared for, so they just turtle, bury their head in the sand and pretend everything is going fine while falling further into obscurity. EU flaunts its "moral values" as its strength, but their geopolitical adversaries have no such values and are dominating over them in the process exploiting their morals against them as their weakness. There's nothing virtuous in being/acting weak and letting others dominate you.
    - GistNoesis 5mo ago
      European Union construction happened after the second world war in the context of the Marshall Plan ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marshall_Plan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marshall_Plan ) to help rebuild Europe that had been destroyed. By design European laws are superior to national laws. Leaving the union is also instant bankruptcy because all countries have very high level of debt which are only guaranteed because they are in the union. European population is getting old and replaced by a migration coming mainly from previous African colonies. Future paying for the past.
- f6v 5mo ago
  Europe in general is a wide term. Like, UK is in Europe and is a surveillance state.

eloisant 5mo ago

Why people always dismiss the European option? Mistral is right here, their models are in-between the cheap to run Chinese models and top of the line performances of US frontier models.

3s 5mo ago
It’s not top of the line and mostly not open source
john_minsk 5mo ago
For a lot of people in the world Europe = USA
- benterix 5mo ago
  But this makes zero sense. Two different continents, values systems, law systems. Not to mention the current USA administration is openly hostile to Europe. So why would anyone confuse the two.
  - quantum_state 5mo ago
    Europe will not be independent as long as there are US military bases there. Saying otherwise would be kidding oneself.
    - benterix 5mo ago
      You are aware that the number of American soldiers in these bases is symbolic and their presence is meant to be a deterrent for Russia?
  - coliveira 5mo ago
    Europe is at the mercy of the USA. Any difference in posture is due to local politics which can swing local elections, but European leaders are willing and eager to do what the US wants.
    - benterix 5mo ago
      Sure, I'd agree with that a few years ago. Nowadays when the USA asks for something like just using their military bases for refueling, they're laughed at.
Lapel2742 5mo ago
> Why people always dismiss the European option? Mistral is good for many tasks where you do not need SOTA or near SOTA performance. They cannot compete if you do.
roenxi 5mo ago
People are probably assuming that the trends from the last few decades continue. The EU fumbled semiconductors, production went to Asia. The EU fumbled the software revolution, the successes mainly came from the US. They fumbled the transition to smartphones despite the Nokia advantage. They missed tablets; seemed like they just didn't have the industrial vigour to make a serious attempt. The safe money is they are going to be an also-ran for the AI revolution. They did manage to force Apple to switch from using lightening connectors to USB though so their wins can't just be laughed off. Maybe they'll surprise us but it'd be a welcome change from their usual routine.
- sofixa 5mo ago
  > The EU fumbled semiconductors, production went to Asia Production of state of the art semiconductors, yes. NXP, STMicro, Infineon are still there and massive in automotive, industrial, card chips, etc. > The EU fumbled the software revolution, the successes mainly came from the US Worldwide massive success, mostly yes. Most European countries have their local or regional success stories though. > The safe money is they are going to be an also-ran for the AI revolution Not really. Past performances, or lack thereof, are not indicative of future ones. Mistral are pretty good and selling well in the enterprise space. Some of the best voice models are coming from France (Kyutai).
  - joe_mamba 5mo ago
    >Production of state of the art semiconductors, yes. If you fall out of the state of the art then the claim of EU fumbling semiconductors is correct. The richest block in the world should settle for no less than being state of the art. Anything less is fumbling it. >NXP, STMicro, Infineon are still there and massive in automotive, industrial, card chips, etc. The EU semi companies you listed are absent from the state of the art and only make low margin commodity parts that don't have moats. ASML exists but is not enough for claiming EU superiority since the EUV light source is still US IP designed and manufactured. And one top company is too little. >Worldwide massive success, mostly yes. Worldwide success is where the big money is, and you need a lot of money for cutting edge research and experimentation to build the future successes. Hence the claim of EU fumbling software is correct. >Most European countries have their local or regional success stories though. EU mom and pop shops aren't gonna make enough money to be able to afford risky ambitious ventures the likes of FAANGs have. Which is probably why you work for Hashicorp, a large global US company, and not some local EU company.
GistNoesis 5mo ago
Europe is always 10 years ahead in all theoretical aspects. Then they need money. So most of the talent flee or get bought, typical example in machine learning space is huggingface or fchollet. Then European government plays catch-up and offer subventions, but at the same time makes rules to make sure companies don't threaten US dominance, or Asian manufacturing. Mistral is typically playing catch the subsidy game. Europe is constructed so that it can't win, but can "pick" the winner between scylla and charybdis, pest and cholera.
- joe_mamba 5mo ago
  >Europe is constructed so that it can't win, but can "pick" the winner between scylla and charybdis, pest and cholera. Because they have no spine and no leverage/muscle on the international stage to throw their weight around and make sure they get what's best for themselves at the expense of everyone else the same way US, China, etc do. They play the international nice guy that just ends up being the doormat everyone takes advantage of, being at the mercy of Russian and Azeri gas, at the mercy of US tech, energy and defence, and at the mercy of Chinese manufacturing after dismantling their own manufacturing, at the mercy of Turkey for migration enforcement, etc so they can't do anything radical that upsets their "partners", or that makes their virtue signaling policies look bad, or risk massive repercussions they aren't prepared for, so they just turtle, bury their head in the sand and pretend everything is going fine while falling further into obscurity. EU flaunts its "moral values" as its strength, but their geopolitical adversaries have no such values and are dominating over them in the process exploiting their morals against them as their weakness. There's nothing virtuous in being/acting weak and letting others dominate you.
  - GistNoesis 5mo ago
    European Union construction happened after the second world war in the context of the Marshall Plan ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marshall_Plan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marshall_Plan ) to help rebuild Europe that had been destroyed. By design European laws are superior to national laws. Leaving the union is also instant bankruptcy because all countries have very high level of debt which are only guaranteed because they are in the union. European population is getting old and replaced by a migration coming mainly from previous African colonies. Future paying for the past.
f6v 5mo ago
Europe in general is a wide term. Like, UK is in Europe and is a surveillance state.