6 ms·

I wonder if COVID revealed to Americans how toxic their individualistic culture is. For a long time it kind of seemed like individualism was working well for yo

by mvdtnz 6mo ago

I wonder if COVID revealed to Americans how toxic their individualistic culture is. For a long time it kind of seemed like individualism was working well for you but COVID was the first crisis since WW2 where the country was asked to pull in the same direction together and it really just fell apart. I'd be miderable too if I learned my entire worldview, and that of my countrymen, was dangerously wrong and there's no way to really fix it.

nephihaha 6mo ago
Lockdown, not "Covid". And that Covid lockdown was a little taste of the extreme form of top down collectivism. (Covid was around both before and after the lockdowns.) The USA got off lockdown lightly in the main. Continental Europe, Canada and Australia all went nuts with it. Especially the Northern Territory and State of Victoria.
- chasd00 6mo ago
  > top down collectivism The Dallas County judge was driving my neighborhood berating people for walking their dogs and telling them to get inside. It was totally insane, i couldn't believe what I was seeing. I met him at a fundraiser once and asked him why he wasn't wearing a mask. My wife's friend (hosting the fundraiser) asked me to leave. His little hobby authoritarian regime during that time was the stupidest thing i'd ever seen but what made me the most angry/shocked is everyone just complied. /I live in Dallas, TX. The judge is Clay Jenkons https://www.dallascounty.org/government/comcrt/jenkins/ https://www.dallascounty.org/government/comcrt/jenkins/
- watwut 6mo ago
  But Europeans and Canadians and Australians are not nearly as much "traumatized" by idea that OMG lockdown happened due to covid. The complete societal inability to adapt seems to be bigger issue in USA. Neither Europe nor Canada are as much affected despite having more lockdowns. It was not lockdown as such, but something else about Americans
  - ryandrake 6mo ago
    Interesting how the stay-at-home orders were much more serious and enforced outside of the USA, yet it was the USA that complained and moaned about them the most. Nobody was forcing us to stay inside our homes, and a lot of people ignored the order and went out anyway. Yet, so many Americans were absolutely outraged and indignant and complaining about Their Freedom, at the minor inconvenience of having their favorite restaurant closed.
    - jerlam 6mo ago
      The US may have had the most visible polarization about it. We had a President threatening to "open up the states" while state governors issued more and more restrictive orders. Depending on what news media you watched, there were ERs filled with bodies or there were people on the beach enjoying their spring break. The contradictory messages from every levels of government for years did a lot to break the underlying faith in the system.
    - nephihaha 6mo ago
      "it was the USA that complained and moaned about them them" There were protests in China but most people never got to hear about them due to heavy censorship. In Australia, indigenous youth started to "go bush" for the first time in many years to avoid living like that. There were also anti-lockdown protests in various countries which were subjected to media blackout. In Australia when their truckers tried to organise protest, internet and phone service was withdrawn from them. Many more things we never got to hear about.
  - pb7 6mo ago
    Europeans, Canadians, and Australians are used to living in nanny states that dictate their lives.
  - nephihaha 6mo ago
    It happened due to government not to Covid. A virus is not a conscious being, it cannot order lockdowns and would continue regardless of whether there was one or not. By the way, the UK is in a complete mess due to Covid. It destroyed at least a seventh of its businesses. Probably more when we omit the ones that died off in 2022- as a delayed result of it. There were truckers' protests in Canada and Australia (the latter resulting in internet and phone signals being cut in some areas.)
- hirvi74 6mo ago
  People will complain that the government did too little or too much, but the key is that people will always complain.
  - nephihaha 6mo ago
    They have the right to, and sometimes they will be justified in their complaints. Some people will also obey whoever is in charge. History bears that out.
picsao 6mo ago
[dead]
chasd00 6mo ago
> where the country was asked to pull in the same direction together There was no asking, if the country was asked then the term "lockdown" wouldn't have been used. On the other hand, there were no soldiers on the street forcing everyone inside. People chose to do it and maybe that's where the social strife really comes from, people realized they just do what they're told by authority and they're not the free-thinking individuals they thought they were. I'm still amazed at the level of total, blind, compliance of the US population. I expected riots in the streets but there was nothing. At least traffic was less. And HN was especially depressing, any mention of "lockdowns" maybe not being the best idea or what Sweden was doing was totally shouted down. I'll never forget that.
- guzfip 6mo ago
  > people realized they just do what they're told by authority and they're not the free-thinking individuals they thought they were Nah, no one who seriously thought this has come around to the truth.
- tayo42 6mo ago
  There were riots in the streets, it was just over another black guy being killed by a racist cop though.
  - chasd00 6mo ago
    yeah and remember when those gatherings/protests got a thumbs up from the CDC but having friends over for dinner was off the table? God, what a ridiculous time that was.
    - ceejayoz 6mo ago
      Almost like outside and inside are different, eh?
      - suttontom 6mo ago
        The hypocrisy was most notable in experts who said those protesting against the lockdowns (outside), who were considered right wing, were risking spreading the disease, but then said the opposite when the protests supported a left-wing narrative. Also the CDC who said you had to stay six feet apart even outside who then were OK with people gathering close together during protests and shouting (specifically called out by the CDC as a risky behavior).
traderj0e 6mo ago
But individualism turned out to be ok in that case. By the time vaccines were out, it had already mutated enough that it didn't make much of a difference whether or not people vaccinated, and most people ended up getting some variant of it. The bickering stopped, and US ended lockdowns around the same time as other countries. If we were less lucky and it turned out to be super deadly and only solvable with more cooperation, that would fall apart here.
- tzs 6mo ago
  > By the time vaccines were out, it had already mutated enough that it didn't make much of a difference whether or not people vaccinated, and most people ended up getting some variant of it. Vaccines made a huge difference in whether or not when you ended up getting it you got a severe case with a significantly higher risk of hospitalization or death or got a case that was just in the mild to really annoying range.
anon291 6mo ago
I mean this is just silly. If anything, America was more communal than most countries during covid, as churches, clubs, gyms, continued to meet, even if in secret. Except for the extremists, no one really cared to be honest. If anything, it made me realize how uninterested in being governed Americans are, and how pervasive this attitude is. Lest you think it's all 'MAGA' types, consider my brother who lives on the Central Coast of California in a heavily hispanic enclave. We visited a few times. Despite California being one of the strictest states, I don't think there was a single sign or signal that anything was going on. My sister-in-law's large hispanic family continued to hold every family event indoors or at parks, without masking, or anything. We had a great time with the cousins. Our church continued to meet in secret, flaunting the spirit of the law, if not the letter, and people were fine. COVID ran through once at the beginning, and then we were just there laughing at the government. Great bonding time honestly.
- Geee 6mo ago
  Individualism means voluntary cooperation. Collectivism is state-imposed forced cooperation. Decentralized vs. centralized. It's a common misconception that individualism means no cooperation; actually it means that each individual can choose who they want to cooperate with.
  - anon291 6mo ago
    Does it matter what the cause is for the purpose of the social benefits of community?
  - array_key_first 6mo ago
    This isn't how most people would define individualism and collectivism, I think. Individualism is the propensity to do whatever is best for the individual, even if it hurts the collective. Collectivism is the propensity to do what's best for the collective, even if it hurts the individual. Wearing masks and social distancing helps the collective. But because Americans are highly individualistic, and doing so is ever so slightly less convenient than not doing so, many people decided not to wear masks or social distance. Oftentimes what is best for the individual and what is best for the collective are one and the same. That is the only reason America works at all. COVID was not one of those times.
Geee 6mo ago
Actually the less collectivist approaches e.g. Sweden caused much less trouble.

by mvdtnz 6mo ago

nephihaha 6mo ago

Lockdown, not "Covid". And that Covid lockdown was a little taste of the extreme form of top down collectivism. (Covid was around both before and after the lockdowns.) The USA got off lockdown lightly in the main. Continental Europe, Canada and Australia all went nuts with it. Especially the Northern Territory and State of Victoria.

chasd00 6mo ago
> top down collectivism The Dallas County judge was driving my neighborhood berating people for walking their dogs and telling them to get inside. It was totally insane, i couldn't believe what I was seeing. I met him at a fundraiser once and asked him why he wasn't wearing a mask. My wife's friend (hosting the fundraiser) asked me to leave. His little hobby authoritarian regime during that time was the stupidest thing i'd ever seen but what made me the most angry/shocked is everyone just complied. /I live in Dallas, TX. The judge is Clay Jenkons https://www.dallascounty.org/government/comcrt/jenkins/ https://www.dallascounty.org/government/comcrt/jenkins/
watwut 6mo ago
But Europeans and Canadians and Australians are not nearly as much "traumatized" by idea that OMG lockdown happened due to covid. The complete societal inability to adapt seems to be bigger issue in USA. Neither Europe nor Canada are as much affected despite having more lockdowns. It was not lockdown as such, but something else about Americans
- ryandrake 6mo ago
  Interesting how the stay-at-home orders were much more serious and enforced outside of the USA, yet it was the USA that complained and moaned about them the most. Nobody was forcing us to stay inside our homes, and a lot of people ignored the order and went out anyway. Yet, so many Americans were absolutely outraged and indignant and complaining about Their Freedom, at the minor inconvenience of having their favorite restaurant closed.
  - jerlam 6mo ago
    The US may have had the most visible polarization about it. We had a President threatening to "open up the states" while state governors issued more and more restrictive orders. Depending on what news media you watched, there were ERs filled with bodies or there were people on the beach enjoying their spring break. The contradictory messages from every levels of government for years did a lot to break the underlying faith in the system.
  - nephihaha 6mo ago
    "it was the USA that complained and moaned about them them" There were protests in China but most people never got to hear about them due to heavy censorship. In Australia, indigenous youth started to "go bush" for the first time in many years to avoid living like that. There were also anti-lockdown protests in various countries which were subjected to media blackout. In Australia when their truckers tried to organise protest, internet and phone service was withdrawn from them. Many more things we never got to hear about.
- pb7 6mo ago
  Europeans, Canadians, and Australians are used to living in nanny states that dictate their lives.
- nephihaha 6mo ago
  It happened due to government not to Covid. A virus is not a conscious being, it cannot order lockdowns and would continue regardless of whether there was one or not. By the way, the UK is in a complete mess due to Covid. It destroyed at least a seventh of its businesses. Probably more when we omit the ones that died off in 2022- as a delayed result of it. There were truckers' protests in Canada and Australia (the latter resulting in internet and phone signals being cut in some areas.)
hirvi74 6mo ago
People will complain that the government did too little or too much, but the key is that people will always complain.
- nephihaha 6mo ago
  They have the right to, and sometimes they will be justified in their complaints. Some people will also obey whoever is in charge. History bears that out.

picsao 6mo ago

[dead]

chasd00 6mo ago

> where the country was asked to pull in the same direction together There was no asking, if the country was asked then the term "lockdown" wouldn't have been used. On the other hand, there were no soldiers on the street forcing everyone inside. People chose to do it and maybe that's where the social strife really comes from, people realized they just do what they're told by authority and they're not the free-thinking individuals they thought they were. I'm still amazed at the level of total, blind, compliance of the US population. I expected riots in the streets but there was nothing. At least traffic was less. And HN was especially depressing, any mention of "lockdowns" maybe not being the best idea or what Sweden was doing was totally shouted down. I'll never forget that.

guzfip 6mo ago
> people realized they just do what they're told by authority and they're not the free-thinking individuals they thought they were Nah, no one who seriously thought this has come around to the truth.
tayo42 6mo ago
There were riots in the streets, it was just over another black guy being killed by a racist cop though.
- chasd00 6mo ago
  yeah and remember when those gatherings/protests got a thumbs up from the CDC but having friends over for dinner was off the table? God, what a ridiculous time that was.
  - ceejayoz 6mo ago
    Almost like outside and inside are different, eh?
    - suttontom 6mo ago
      The hypocrisy was most notable in experts who said those protesting against the lockdowns (outside), who were considered right wing, were risking spreading the disease, but then said the opposite when the protests supported a left-wing narrative. Also the CDC who said you had to stay six feet apart even outside who then were OK with people gathering close together during protests and shouting (specifically called out by the CDC as a risky behavior).

traderj0e 6mo ago

But individualism turned out to be ok in that case. By the time vaccines were out, it had already mutated enough that it didn't make much of a difference whether or not people vaccinated, and most people ended up getting some variant of it. The bickering stopped, and US ended lockdowns around the same time as other countries. If we were less lucky and it turned out to be super deadly and only solvable with more cooperation, that would fall apart here.

tzs 6mo ago
> By the time vaccines were out, it had already mutated enough that it didn't make much of a difference whether or not people vaccinated, and most people ended up getting some variant of it. Vaccines made a huge difference in whether or not when you ended up getting it you got a severe case with a significantly higher risk of hospitalization or death or got a case that was just in the mild to really annoying range.

anon291 6mo ago

I mean this is just silly. If anything, America was more communal than most countries during covid, as churches, clubs, gyms, continued to meet, even if in secret. Except for the extremists, no one really cared to be honest. If anything, it made me realize how uninterested in being governed Americans are, and how pervasive this attitude is. Lest you think it's all 'MAGA' types, consider my brother who lives on the Central Coast of California in a heavily hispanic enclave. We visited a few times. Despite California being one of the strictest states, I don't think there was a single sign or signal that anything was going on. My sister-in-law's large hispanic family continued to hold every family event indoors or at parks, without masking, or anything. We had a great time with the cousins. Our church continued to meet in secret, flaunting the spirit of the law, if not the letter, and people were fine. COVID ran through once at the beginning, and then we were just there laughing at the government. Great bonding time honestly.

Geee 6mo ago
Individualism means voluntary cooperation. Collectivism is state-imposed forced cooperation. Decentralized vs. centralized. It's a common misconception that individualism means no cooperation; actually it means that each individual can choose who they want to cooperate with.
- anon291 6mo ago
  Does it matter what the cause is for the purpose of the social benefits of community?
- array_key_first 6mo ago
  This isn't how most people would define individualism and collectivism, I think. Individualism is the propensity to do whatever is best for the individual, even if it hurts the collective. Collectivism is the propensity to do what's best for the collective, even if it hurts the individual. Wearing masks and social distancing helps the collective. But because Americans are highly individualistic, and doing so is ever so slightly less convenient than not doing so, many people decided not to wear masks or social distance. Oftentimes what is best for the individual and what is best for the collective are one and the same. That is the only reason America works at all. COVID was not one of those times.

Geee 6mo ago

Actually the less collectivist approaches e.g. Sweden caused much less trouble.