4 ms·

I don't understand, doesn't NY have a points system for driving licenses? In most places you could speed at most half a dozen times before you lose your license

I don't understand, doesn't NY have a points system for driving licenses? In most places you could speed at most half a dozen times before you lose your license.

arscan 6mo ago
It does, but according to the article it doesn’t apply to tickets issued by camera.
- ceejayoz 6mo ago
  Well, that, and cops.
  - voxadam 6mo ago
    Cops don't give tickets to other cops.
    - ceejayoz 6mo ago
      In NYC, cops' friends are also exempt. https://www.nytimes.com/2024/01/16/nyregion/mathew-bianchi-nypd-traffic-tickets.html https://www.nytimes.com/2024/01/16/nyregion/mathew-bianchi-n...
      - wahern 6mo ago
        In California cops, family members of cops, and related personnel (e.g. police union officials) can get a special insignia on their license. So when they're pulled over and are asked to present their license....
        FireBeyond 6mo ago
        The FOP (Fraternal Order of Police). Also a thing in NY and NJ. Fun facts... the insignia you put on your license or on your car also has a thing like a registration tab... The FOP says its "to show your ongoing support", everyone else with a room temperature IQ knows its "to show you're 'paid up' on your protection money for the year". Oh, and some enterprising souls have created "counterfeit" FOP insignia and stickers and other regalia (or for those tabs), and sold them on eBay... only to have the weight of the police union's attorneys come down on them with cease and desists, etc. Biggest gang, etc.
        wahern 6mo ago
        It's probably for the better they're taken down. In California, and perhaps NY and NJ, too, the status shows up on your DMV records, so when a cop runs your license or your plate (and I presume plates are scanned and run automatically), they'll see the discrepancy immediately. So someone is just asking for trouble by using fake stickers, just like if they went around flashing a gang sign when they're not actually a member.
        FireBeyond 6mo ago
        That in itself blows my mind, why on earth should someone see your membership in this order? It's not a LE agency, and in many states the FOP allows membership for retired cops. I do agree with what you're saying, though, but the issue to me is why that's even something that should show up when your plates are run, "Oh, you're a cop somewhere, or used to be".
        wahern 6mo ago
        I don't remember if the DMV status is actually FOP, or something else, but I knew a lawyer who worked with a police union who had this status. But that's just icing on the cake compared to stuff like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_Enforcement_Officers%27_Bill_of_Rights https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_Enforcement_Officers%27_Bi... I have a friend who's a union leader (as in actually runs a sizeable union) and, in the eyes of most people, a straight-up socialist. He convinced me public sector unions are a horrible idea precisely because of the above. I had known about the above, but I always had trouble squaring my support for the right to unionize with the problems with public sector unions. He basically gave me permission to call a spade a spade.
        FireBeyond 6mo ago
        What about the Federal register of LEOs who have been terminated or resigned to avoid termination? Very useful concept for transparency... ... but the police unions that represent approximately 70% of the nation's police have negotiated it into their CBAs that this register "cannot be used for hiring or promotional purposes".
diath 6mo ago
From the article: > State law classifies camera-based tickets as mere violations, and they don’t add any points to a driver’s record, even though exceeding the speed limit by 11 miles per hour is worth four points on a license — but only if the offender is caught by a cop instead of a camera. Just three of those tickets suspends a driver’s license, but Giovansanti can keep on driving.
- haritha-j 6mo ago
  Ah. Well that sounds like the perfect system for a cop to exploit.
  - stackghost 6mo ago
    There's a reason why ACAB was coined.
- gerdesj 6mo ago
  Can't he be considered as the arresting cop, after all he has witnessed all the speeding offenses? Sounds like dereliction of duty at best 8)
alwa 6mo ago
They do! But their speed cameras can’t establish the identity of the human who was driving, at least to a legally sufficient standard. While I imagine it’s reasonable to assume “one vehicle per licensed driver” across much of America, that assumption seems much less reliable in NYC, where space is at an extreme premium and large families often share space. Can’t punish Mom for Dad’s speeding habit just because the car’s in her name. Plus, that doesn’t get Dad off the road! And it doesn’t really seem cost-effective (or politically viable) to build out an elaborate appeal system to litigate which human was driving every single time. (Or to layer some kind of AI facial recognition onto the cameras. No. Bad hackers. :) )
- avidiax 6mo ago
  In parts of Europe, it's a crime in and of itself to fail to identify the driver of a vehicle. Under that system, if the vehicle is registered to you, you can be charged criminally for its conduct, and even if you prove you weren't behind the wheel, you can be charged criminally for failing to identify the actual driver. Driving isn't a game. It's the most deadly daily activity, and while I'm not sure I want Euro-style speed enforcement, it shouldn't be something that you can just shrug off, especially 30%+ over the limit in a low speed area.
- TulliusCicero 6mo ago
  You can always just target the vehicle, since the vehicle was obviously involved. Except in cases where the vehicle was stolen, then it was driven by one of the owners or by someone the owners permitted to drive the car. Either way, the owners are responsible on some level. Maybe not to the level of jail, but certainly to the level of paying off fines (initially), and eventually having the car seized (if the number of tickets is extremely high, as in this case).

I don't understand, doesn't NY have a points system for driving licenses? In most places you could speed at most half a dozen times before you lose your license.

arscan 6mo ago

It does, but according to the article it doesn’t apply to tickets issued by camera.

ceejayoz 6mo ago
Well, that, and cops.
- voxadam 6mo ago
  Cops don't give tickets to other cops.
  - ceejayoz 6mo ago
    In NYC, cops' friends are also exempt. https://www.nytimes.com/2024/01/16/nyregion/mathew-bianchi-nypd-traffic-tickets.html https://www.nytimes.com/2024/01/16/nyregion/mathew-bianchi-n...
    - wahern 6mo ago
      In California cops, family members of cops, and related personnel (e.g. police union officials) can get a special insignia on their license. So when they're pulled over and are asked to present their license....
      - FireBeyond 6mo ago
        The FOP (Fraternal Order of Police). Also a thing in NY and NJ. Fun facts... the insignia you put on your license or on your car also has a thing like a registration tab... The FOP says its "to show your ongoing support", everyone else with a room temperature IQ knows its "to show you're 'paid up' on your protection money for the year". Oh, and some enterprising souls have created "counterfeit" FOP insignia and stickers and other regalia (or for those tabs), and sold them on eBay... only to have the weight of the police union's attorneys come down on them with cease and desists, etc. Biggest gang, etc.
        wahern 6mo ago
        It's probably for the better they're taken down. In California, and perhaps NY and NJ, too, the status shows up on your DMV records, so when a cop runs your license or your plate (and I presume plates are scanned and run automatically), they'll see the discrepancy immediately. So someone is just asking for trouble by using fake stickers, just like if they went around flashing a gang sign when they're not actually a member.
        FireBeyond 6mo ago
        That in itself blows my mind, why on earth should someone see your membership in this order? It's not a LE agency, and in many states the FOP allows membership for retired cops. I do agree with what you're saying, though, but the issue to me is why that's even something that should show up when your plates are run, "Oh, you're a cop somewhere, or used to be".
        wahern 6mo ago
        I don't remember if the DMV status is actually FOP, or something else, but I knew a lawyer who worked with a police union who had this status. But that's just icing on the cake compared to stuff like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_Enforcement_Officers%27_Bill_of_Rights https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_Enforcement_Officers%27_Bi... I have a friend who's a union leader (as in actually runs a sizeable union) and, in the eyes of most people, a straight-up socialist. He convinced me public sector unions are a horrible idea precisely because of the above. I had known about the above, but I always had trouble squaring my support for the right to unionize with the problems with public sector unions. He basically gave me permission to call a spade a spade.
        FireBeyond 6mo ago
        What about the Federal register of LEOs who have been terminated or resigned to avoid termination? Very useful concept for transparency... ... but the police unions that represent approximately 70% of the nation's police have negotiated it into their CBAs that this register "cannot be used for hiring or promotional purposes".

diath 6mo ago

From the article: > State law classifies camera-based tickets as mere violations, and they don’t add any points to a driver’s record, even though exceeding the speed limit by 11 miles per hour is worth four points on a license — but only if the offender is caught by a cop instead of a camera. Just three of those tickets suspends a driver’s license, but Giovansanti can keep on driving.

haritha-j 6mo ago
Ah. Well that sounds like the perfect system for a cop to exploit.
- stackghost 6mo ago
  There's a reason why ACAB was coined.
gerdesj 6mo ago
Can't he be considered as the arresting cop, after all he has witnessed all the speeding offenses? Sounds like dereliction of duty at best 8)

alwa 6mo ago

They do! But their speed cameras can’t establish the identity of the human who was driving, at least to a legally sufficient standard. While I imagine it’s reasonable to assume “one vehicle per licensed driver” across much of America, that assumption seems much less reliable in NYC, where space is at an extreme premium and large families often share space. Can’t punish Mom for Dad’s speeding habit just because the car’s in her name. Plus, that doesn’t get Dad off the road! And it doesn’t really seem cost-effective (or politically viable) to build out an elaborate appeal system to litigate which human was driving every single time. (Or to layer some kind of AI facial recognition onto the cameras. No. Bad hackers. :) )

avidiax 6mo ago
In parts of Europe, it's a crime in and of itself to fail to identify the driver of a vehicle. Under that system, if the vehicle is registered to you, you can be charged criminally for its conduct, and even if you prove you weren't behind the wheel, you can be charged criminally for failing to identify the actual driver. Driving isn't a game. It's the most deadly daily activity, and while I'm not sure I want Euro-style speed enforcement, it shouldn't be something that you can just shrug off, especially 30%+ over the limit in a low speed area.
TulliusCicero 6mo ago
You can always just target the vehicle, since the vehicle was obviously involved. Except in cases where the vehicle was stolen, then it was driven by one of the owners or by someone the owners permitted to drive the car. Either way, the owners are responsible on some level. Maybe not to the level of jail, but certainly to the level of paying off fines (initially), and eventually having the car seized (if the number of tickets is extremely high, as in this case).