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The Arab world is already awash in antisemitic propaganda. This Twitter account isn't going to move the needle there. No, this account is aimed at Americans. I

The Arab world is already awash in antisemitic propaganda. This Twitter account isn't going to move the needle there. No, this account is aimed at Americans. It shares short, simple, true messages: Hamas is a terrorist organization, Hamas launches hundreds of rockets into Israel, Israel is defending itself, and Israel is rather good at defending itself. The messages are designed to be shared with friends, in order to combat anti-Israeli attitudes. If you look at the IDF's blog (http://www.idfblog.com/ http://www.idfblog.com/), they've even added some game mechanics to the mix with their 'IDF Ranks'. Personally, I think it's brilliant.

skrebbel 14y ago
I doubt it'll work. Before this, I merely thought of the Israeli government as a bunch of nazis who believe that driving people out of their homes is god's work. Now, I also think they're barbarians.
- philwelch 14y ago
  > Before this, I merely thought of the Israeli government as a bunch of nazis That's probably the least appropriate analogy ever. > who believe that driving people out of their homes is god's work Israel is actually a surprisingly secular country. If you don't know the most basic things about a country, maybe you shouldn't go around calling them nazis and barbarians. There's a word for those kind of attitudes.
  - skrebbel 14y ago
    Good point. In fact, I may very well not know the most basic things about this country. But then how do you explain the colonization programme? The only explanation I've been able to figure out is some zionist idea of a right to a patch of land; some race-based sense of superiority. Why else bulldozer villages far across the border that was last determined in a treaty? These are horrible crimes, committed willingly by a democratically elected government. I genuinely don't get it. But I do admit here that I've turned this not-understanding into choosing that it must be plain evil. Maybe it's something different. I'll not delete my original post to keep the thread understandable.
    - skrebbel 14y ago
      Wait, i write a nasty, unfriendly post and get many upvotes. Then I admit that the nasty unfriendly post might've been based on a lack of understanding and ask for someone to explain better, and I get downvoted? What's going on, HN? EDIT: I'm editing this comment because HN won't allow me to respond to blvr's post. blvr, thanks for elaborating. I don't mean to sound hateful, and I'm willing to accept that I have it all wrong. But still, can you explain the colonization thing? Why do they do it? Note, this is not criticism: I'd really like to understand it better. It's been pointed out by many in this thread by now that I've been assuming things.
      - blvr 14y ago
        Click the permalink to reply. I don't know what you mean by 'the colonisation thing'. What are you talking about specifically?
        skrebbel 14y ago
        (nice trick!) Aie, damn. Lost in translation. I meant the settlements. But people have been elaborating about those in other comments by now. And I've come to stand corrected that even if the settlements are horrible, they're less horrible than suicide bombings and the likes.
    - blvr 14y ago
      Wow. No. You've got it completely wrong. Zionism is the idea that Jews need a Jewish nation to take Jewish refugees fleeing persecution. History has basically proved that to be true. What it's not: 1. The idea that Jews are in any way superior. All races have equal rights under Israeli law (although secular Jews have some obligations that other groups don't, i.e. mandatory military service) and Israel has a significant Arab population. 2. Religion-based. Early Zionists were all secular socialists. Religious Jews got on board later when they started to see Israel as a sign from God but the traditional position (and the reason why many Ultra-Orthodox Jews still don't support Israel) is that Jews weren't allowed a nation until the Messiah comes. Israel isn't perfect (obviously) but your comments are completely disproportionate. You need to tone down the hate.
- gyardley 14y ago
  Re-read what you just wrote. Now, do you really think you're the target audience?
  - skrebbel 14y ago
    No, but the GP seems to imply that it will help change the mind of those critical of Israel. I'm one of those, and it didn't change my mind. Admittedly, I'm just a single sample though.
- xenophanes 14y ago
  And you believe posting anti-semitic remarks in public is appropriate. We should care about your opinion why? Flagged.
  - skrebbel 14y ago
    I'm curious, why do you equate "critical of the Israeli government" to antisemitism? I have no problem with Jews at all. In fact, if you read carefully, you'll see that the word Jew (or anything like it) does not appear in my post.
    - gyardley 14y ago
      There are ways to be critical of the Israeli government without being antisemitic. You could be critical of, say, something relating to unemployment insurance. But that's not what people are usually talking about when this argument comes up - instead, they're criticizing Israel's right to exist or Israel's right to defend itself (which amounts to the same thing). When they're not being so explicit, they want Israel to embark on a policy which would lead to the end of Israel (accepting indefensible borders, the 'right of return', etc.) In short, they're making the 'anti-Zionism is not anti-Semitism' argument. Personally, I think anti-Zionism is just the first type of antisemitism to try and simultaneously deny it's antisemitic. Let me try to explain with an analogy. Let's say I was anti-France - that I believed French national identity was somehow illegitimate, and that therefore France shouldn't be a country. Since France shouldn't exist, France also isn't entitled to defend itself from external attack. However, I have no problem with French people! Great wine, great cheese - they just shouldn't be able to have a country. If a French person objects, I'll just patiently remind him that I'm not anti-French, I'm merely anti-France. Perhaps I'll criticize him a bit for inappropriately throwing out the anti-French card. Sound ridiculous? Well, that's exactly how it sounds to me when someone argues that my people can't establish a state (in the same imperfect way most states are established) and then can't defend our state from attack. Everyone else's national self-determination is fine, but ours is somehow not. So yes, when people make this sort of argument against Israel - a type of argument they would never make against Sweden or France or Mexico - in that case I do believe they're being more than a little biased against my people in particular, and therefore antisemitic.
- skrebbel 14y ago
  Self-reply: I am ashamed by this comment by now. In particular, the Nazi comparison is way out of line, and unnecessarily offensive. Overall, the comment is short-sighted and childish. It's a testament to the overall excellence of the HN community that the comment sparked a discussion, not a flamewar.
haberman 14y ago
I'm an American who is split on this issue (I find fault on both sides). None of the things you mentioned were ever uncertain to me. If Israel is looking for more support from people like me, the question I'd like to see them answer is: how do they justify the West Bank settlements? I can't even begin to understand how Israel can claim to want peace with Palestinians while unilaterally moving into the land where 2/3 of them live. Where do they think the Palestinian state should be? I can't even say I'm disagreeing with Israel's stance on this issue, because I honestly don't understand what theory Israel uses to justify this. Every time I read any news on this issue, there is a conspicuous lack of comment from Israeli leadership about why this is ok. It's like they don't believe it needs explaining. It's very strange to me. Hamas is awful, but what space are Israel's policies leaving for more moderate Palestinian leadership?
- xenophanes 14y ago
  The justification for settlements is as follows: buying land, and living there, is legal. Describing this process is "unilaterally moving into land where 2/3 of them live" is false. A way to stop being split on the issue is to stop believing false factual claims. Palestine will have moderate leadership sometime after the majority of Palestinians are decent people who will vote for decent leaders. Blaming Israel for the hatred of its extremist enemies is nasty.
  - cup 14y ago
    Calling the majority of Palestinians as indecent people is nasty.
    - deleted 14y ago
      [deleted]
    - xenophanes 14y ago
      are you disputing facts like these? http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/01/26/AR2006012600372.html http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/01...
epoxyhockey 14y ago
Coming from someone who isn't really engaged in the whole Israel-Palestine thing (and, honestly, won't be until they cause the next world war), this little display makes me feel like IDF is presenting a very real, serious act (killing a person) as if it is a game. The trophy eliminated graphic and youtube video.. it's almost like they aren't even serious about killing people and using military force. It has a reckless feeling to it and it doesn't sit well with me.
- kamaal 14y ago
  >>as if it is a game. Its not even a game actually. I mean you are comparing two forces of totally unequal magnitude. Israel probably has several hundreds of times a more military power, air power and naval power than the Palestinians. The Palestinians do not even have a remote chance of even touching Israel. >>it's almost like they aren't even serious about killing people and using military force. Your opponents have a fleet of most advanced air power backed by the biggest, most powerful and technically sophisticated army owned by a super power in the whole world. Coupled with this unmatched ground power. What you have is a gun, crude weapons and rockets. Is this even a competition? Think of it more like practice sessions.
  - philwelch 14y ago
    > The Palestinians do not even have a remote chance of even touching Israel. Tell that to all the Israelis killed by Palestinian terrorism.
    - kamaal 14y ago
      There is only a insane person that will justify killing anybody. I mean anybody. No matter who kills whom.
    - ominds 14y ago
      What an idiot. Calling genocide and occupation legal and the struggle against occupation terrorism. Poor Israelis who have been killed by these terrorists! Here are the number of Palestinians/Israelis killed since 1948. This is no two-state battle as it's portrayed to be. These numbers indicate nothing but genocide. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinian_conflict#Fatalities_1948.E2.80.93present http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinian_con...
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
azth 14y ago
> The Arab world is already awash in antisemitic propaganda. Funny how the word 'antisemitic' gets thrown around; Arabs are Semites too.

skrebbel 14y ago

I doubt it'll work. Before this, I merely thought of the Israeli government as a bunch of nazis who believe that driving people out of their homes is god's work. Now, I also think they're barbarians.

philwelch 14y ago
> Before this, I merely thought of the Israeli government as a bunch of nazis That's probably the least appropriate analogy ever. > who believe that driving people out of their homes is god's work Israel is actually a surprisingly secular country. If you don't know the most basic things about a country, maybe you shouldn't go around calling them nazis and barbarians. There's a word for those kind of attitudes.
- skrebbel 14y ago
  Good point. In fact, I may very well not know the most basic things about this country. But then how do you explain the colonization programme? The only explanation I've been able to figure out is some zionist idea of a right to a patch of land; some race-based sense of superiority. Why else bulldozer villages far across the border that was last determined in a treaty? These are horrible crimes, committed willingly by a democratically elected government. I genuinely don't get it. But I do admit here that I've turned this not-understanding into choosing that it must be plain evil. Maybe it's something different. I'll not delete my original post to keep the thread understandable.
  - skrebbel 14y ago
    Wait, i write a nasty, unfriendly post and get many upvotes. Then I admit that the nasty unfriendly post might've been based on a lack of understanding and ask for someone to explain better, and I get downvoted? What's going on, HN? EDIT: I'm editing this comment because HN won't allow me to respond to blvr's post. blvr, thanks for elaborating. I don't mean to sound hateful, and I'm willing to accept that I have it all wrong. But still, can you explain the colonization thing? Why do they do it? Note, this is not criticism: I'd really like to understand it better. It's been pointed out by many in this thread by now that I've been assuming things.
    - blvr 14y ago
      Click the permalink to reply. I don't know what you mean by 'the colonisation thing'. What are you talking about specifically?
      - skrebbel 14y ago
        (nice trick!) Aie, damn. Lost in translation. I meant the settlements. But people have been elaborating about those in other comments by now. And I've come to stand corrected that even if the settlements are horrible, they're less horrible than suicide bombings and the likes.
  - blvr 14y ago
    Wow. No. You've got it completely wrong. Zionism is the idea that Jews need a Jewish nation to take Jewish refugees fleeing persecution. History has basically proved that to be true. What it's not: 1. The idea that Jews are in any way superior. All races have equal rights under Israeli law (although secular Jews have some obligations that other groups don't, i.e. mandatory military service) and Israel has a significant Arab population. 2. Religion-based. Early Zionists were all secular socialists. Religious Jews got on board later when they started to see Israel as a sign from God but the traditional position (and the reason why many Ultra-Orthodox Jews still don't support Israel) is that Jews weren't allowed a nation until the Messiah comes. Israel isn't perfect (obviously) but your comments are completely disproportionate. You need to tone down the hate.
gyardley 14y ago
Re-read what you just wrote. Now, do you really think you're the target audience?
- skrebbel 14y ago
  No, but the GP seems to imply that it will help change the mind of those critical of Israel. I'm one of those, and it didn't change my mind. Admittedly, I'm just a single sample though.
xenophanes 14y ago
And you believe posting anti-semitic remarks in public is appropriate. We should care about your opinion why? Flagged.
- skrebbel 14y ago
  I'm curious, why do you equate "critical of the Israeli government" to antisemitism? I have no problem with Jews at all. In fact, if you read carefully, you'll see that the word Jew (or anything like it) does not appear in my post.
  - gyardley 14y ago
    There are ways to be critical of the Israeli government without being antisemitic. You could be critical of, say, something relating to unemployment insurance. But that's not what people are usually talking about when this argument comes up - instead, they're criticizing Israel's right to exist or Israel's right to defend itself (which amounts to the same thing). When they're not being so explicit, they want Israel to embark on a policy which would lead to the end of Israel (accepting indefensible borders, the 'right of return', etc.) In short, they're making the 'anti-Zionism is not anti-Semitism' argument. Personally, I think anti-Zionism is just the first type of antisemitism to try and simultaneously deny it's antisemitic. Let me try to explain with an analogy. Let's say I was anti-France - that I believed French national identity was somehow illegitimate, and that therefore France shouldn't be a country. Since France shouldn't exist, France also isn't entitled to defend itself from external attack. However, I have no problem with French people! Great wine, great cheese - they just shouldn't be able to have a country. If a French person objects, I'll just patiently remind him that I'm not anti-French, I'm merely anti-France. Perhaps I'll criticize him a bit for inappropriately throwing out the anti-French card. Sound ridiculous? Well, that's exactly how it sounds to me when someone argues that my people can't establish a state (in the same imperfect way most states are established) and then can't defend our state from attack. Everyone else's national self-determination is fine, but ours is somehow not. So yes, when people make this sort of argument against Israel - a type of argument they would never make against Sweden or France or Mexico - in that case I do believe they're being more than a little biased against my people in particular, and therefore antisemitic.
skrebbel 14y ago
Self-reply: I am ashamed by this comment by now. In particular, the Nazi comparison is way out of line, and unnecessarily offensive. Overall, the comment is short-sighted and childish. It's a testament to the overall excellence of the HN community that the comment sparked a discussion, not a flamewar.

haberman 14y ago

I'm an American who is split on this issue (I find fault on both sides). None of the things you mentioned were ever uncertain to me. If Israel is looking for more support from people like me, the question I'd like to see them answer is: how do they justify the West Bank settlements? I can't even begin to understand how Israel can claim to want peace with Palestinians while unilaterally moving into the land where 2/3 of them live. Where do they think the Palestinian state should be? I can't even say I'm disagreeing with Israel's stance on this issue, because I honestly don't understand what theory Israel uses to justify this. Every time I read any news on this issue, there is a conspicuous lack of comment from Israeli leadership about why this is ok. It's like they don't believe it needs explaining. It's very strange to me. Hamas is awful, but what space are Israel's policies leaving for more moderate Palestinian leadership?

xenophanes 14y ago
The justification for settlements is as follows: buying land, and living there, is legal. Describing this process is "unilaterally moving into land where 2/3 of them live" is false. A way to stop being split on the issue is to stop believing false factual claims. Palestine will have moderate leadership sometime after the majority of Palestinians are decent people who will vote for decent leaders. Blaming Israel for the hatred of its extremist enemies is nasty.
- cup 14y ago
  Calling the majority of Palestinians as indecent people is nasty.
  - deleted 14y ago
    [deleted]
  - xenophanes 14y ago
    are you disputing facts like these? http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/01/26/AR2006012600372.html http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/01...

epoxyhockey 14y ago

Coming from someone who isn't really engaged in the whole Israel-Palestine thing (and, honestly, won't be until they cause the next world war), this little display makes me feel like IDF is presenting a very real, serious act (killing a person) as if it is a game. The trophy eliminated graphic and youtube video.. it's almost like they aren't even serious about killing people and using military force. It has a reckless feeling to it and it doesn't sit well with me.

kamaal 14y ago
>>as if it is a game. Its not even a game actually. I mean you are comparing two forces of totally unequal magnitude. Israel probably has several hundreds of times a more military power, air power and naval power than the Palestinians. The Palestinians do not even have a remote chance of even touching Israel. >>it's almost like they aren't even serious about killing people and using military force. Your opponents have a fleet of most advanced air power backed by the biggest, most powerful and technically sophisticated army owned by a super power in the whole world. Coupled with this unmatched ground power. What you have is a gun, crude weapons and rockets. Is this even a competition? Think of it more like practice sessions.
- philwelch 14y ago
  > The Palestinians do not even have a remote chance of even touching Israel. Tell that to all the Israelis killed by Palestinian terrorism.
  - kamaal 14y ago
    There is only a insane person that will justify killing anybody. I mean anybody. No matter who kills whom.
  - ominds 14y ago
    What an idiot. Calling genocide and occupation legal and the struggle against occupation terrorism. Poor Israelis who have been killed by these terrorists! Here are the number of Palestinians/Israelis killed since 1948. This is no two-state battle as it's portrayed to be. These numbers indicate nothing but genocide. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinian_conflict#Fatalities_1948.E2.80.93present http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinian_con...

deleted 14y ago

[deleted]

azth 14y ago

> The Arab world is already awash in antisemitic propaganda. Funny how the word 'antisemitic' gets thrown around; Arabs are Semites too.