4 ms·

Those buying new don't care about repairs. They were never going to do the warrantee work themselves anyway. Those buying on the used market have more reason to

by 9rx 6mo ago

Those buying new don't care about repairs. They were never going to do the warrantee work themselves anyway. Those buying on the used market have more reason to care about repairs, but used buyers are beholden to what new buyers purchased in the past.

justonceokay 6mo ago
> Those buying new don't care about repairs. Yes because thy live in the John Deere future. This was not always the case, surely. You used to be able to take high school classes to learn how to fix a combustion engine, even a new one!
- saalweachter 6mo ago
  Keep in mind that tractors are also getting massive. The economics of row-crop agriculture is "you gotta farm more land". That means spending as much time in the field as you can with as big a machine as you can. So not only is time you spend fixing your tractor yourself time you're not spending on your primary job, it's also working on a machine that's just monstrously huge. Delegating that work to a specialist with specialized tools is a very reasonable way to live.
  - greedo 6mo ago
    Exactly! The old image of a guy on a Deere 4020 pulling an eight row implement is just unsustainable in today's agricultural system. Whether that system is sustainable is a different question.
    - saalweachter 6mo ago
      Incidentally, the 4020 is like the tractor to me. One of these days I'm going to buy one to restore, the way other men but the cars of their youth.
      - greedo 6mo ago
        Exactly. A 4020 is fun! It may not have as much torque and ground pressure may not be as good as a quad belt tractor, but for a lil farm where you just want to grow hay or screw around?
    - 9rx 6mo ago
      > The old image of a guy on a Deere 4020 pulling an eight row implement is just unsustainable in today's agricultural system. That entirely depends on your business goals. If you want to leverage debt to amass wealth you need scale to eke out a living after the debt burden takes most of your potential profit. The 4020 is going to fall well short of what is required there. Those who see farming as an income source rather than a wealth generator, however, don't need scale and can do quite well with the venerable 4020. Eight rows is plenty when you don't have the bank breathing down your neck wondering if you are going to cover your six figure loan payment this month. It's a lot like the business of tech, really. Some want to build the startup that never turns a profit but sells for billions years into the future, while others want to build the small "mom and pop" that offers a lifestyle, even if it never makes them rich. Both are valid and viable approaches. It depends on what you want out of it.
  - vablings 6mo ago
    The issue is that the specialized employees is not someone you hire on payroll who has access to tools you purchase. They must be a John Deere employee who comes from out of state and costs you $$$$$$ to calibrate a sensor that could just be a simple menu button and a 20 second wait
    - saalweachter 6mo ago
      I mean, sure, right to repair and all that, but to be clear, unless you have like 50+ tractors to maintain, it's not going to make economic sense to have a full time employee to repair them. You still want to call out, you just want the option of calling someone local with more competitive rates and a faster response time.
    - greedo 6mo ago
      JD techs are all over the Midwest. No one is coming from out of state to work on your combine.
    - 9rx 6mo ago
      If John Deere is sending a tech, you've encountered something that could never be just a simple menu button. You've found a major flaw that they need to investigate in detail. John Deere would never send a tech for routine troubleshooting/repairs. That falls on the local dealership franchises. Their employees are not John Deere employees.
      - vablings 6mo ago
        No, sadly not. John Deere is very anti right to repair, and they will do anything to make you call up an authorized tech. There are authorized dealers who are not John Deere directly, but they are completely subservient to John Deere (they have to be otherwise they will not get access to the software tooling required to fix equipment), the semantic difference to a farmer is inconsequential, you will be overcharged[1] and scalped because the consequences of not paying is a multi-million-dollar heap of scrap because you cannot fix it yourself. There are no independent tools to work on this equipment because selling a license to a 3rd party software would be in breach 1201 of the DMCA [1]: https://apnews.com/article/john-deere-repair-lawsuit-settlement-595d4b089689cd94418991326275b68d https://apnews.com/article/john-deere-repair-lawsuit-settlem... [2]: https://apnews.com/article/deere-farm-repair-tractors-monopoly-85c18d35a1e0999decb535aa5d7c358e https://apnews.com/article/deere-farm-repair-tractors-monopo...
- HeyLaughingBoy 6mo ago
  You still can. My 26-year-old took automotive shop when he was a Junior in HS. Of course, we live in a rural school district...
cucumber3732842 6mo ago
That's not true for commercial users the way it is for private cars. Even if you have a service contract you're still gonna be pissed at the downtime cost of having a tech drag their ass out to wherever you are to initiate a forced regen or something.
- 9rx 6mo ago
  > you're still gonna be pissed at the downtime cost of having a tech drag their ass out to wherever you are You might be pissed that the machine malfunctioned at all, but you kind of have to accept that if you want to be in the business. It comes with the territory. But you are not going to personally travel all the way from the office out to the field to fix it. That's insanity. The small farmer who has to do it all to make the business viable has more reason to want to fix it himself, but they live on the used market. The small farmer can't afford those new machines. Have you seen how expensive new equipment is? And that is exactly what Ursa is gambling on here: That if they remove all but the bare necessities that they can get the price point of new down to something small farmers can actually afford. However, it remains to be seen if that is compelling enough. Not having all the modern conveniences does take its toll on your mind and body after a long day in the field. A modern-spec used machine may still be more appealing to the small farmer who has to operate his own equipment — and let's face the harsh reality here: even if you aren't personally going to operate it, hired help isn't coming if you don't give them the most luxurious equipment available. They can just as easily go work for the farm that was willing to invest in it.
wolttam 6mo ago
The existence of this startup and their early demand seems to refute your point.
- 9rx 6mo ago
  What early demand are you seeing, exactly? The article does indicate that they plan to ramp up production in 2026, but no mention of actual sales. It is quite possible that they are increasing production thinking that they need to roll them out to dealer lots to gain any traction. In fact, their TractorHouse profile shows that they are still struggling to sell last year's models. If there was demand, why hasn't that demand already gobbled up the stock? "I guess it would be cool to own one if it was given to me for free" isn't demand.
  - righthand 6mo ago
    They need to swing the pendulum back, the current problem is that there is now a whole generation about to take over from the previous and the new gen has never had to use a non-John Deere a tractor. If they could evangelize their product as the “smarter farmer that doesn’t need all that tech” then they might have success.
    - greedo 6mo ago
      You should know that there are alternatives to green machines; Case, Massey Ferguson, Fendt etc.
      - righthand 6mo ago
        I know but for the sake of timeliness I’m not writing out every tractor company. Further John Deere has led the way on the current state of tractors.
      - saalweachter 6mo ago
        Oh hey, do you happen to know if there's any tool incompatibility in the modern electronics? The other thing about tractors is that the three point hitches, PTOs, etc etc, have been standardized forever, so there's very little lock in in terms of, swap out your JD for and IH and away you go, so I'm curious if eg modern seed drills have any fancy tech which locks you in.
sodapopcan 6mo ago
> Those buying new don't care about repairs. huh, why not?
- 9rx 6mo ago
  Because it's not an effective use of their time. New farm equipment buyers are running big businesses. Shifting their focus away from the business to repair equipment would be as silly as the CEO of Google personally replacing a failed hard drive on an employee's workstation. There is an industry out there that is already worried about the repairs for you. You, not being in that industry, don't need to be. Like before, those next in line buying used equipment on smaller farms are more likely to have free time to spend on doing their own repairs and may even enjoy doing it as a hobby, but like before, the are limited to what's available on the used market. If the BTOs aren't buying Kubotas[1], it won't be a used option. This segment of farmers aren't choosing what enters the market initially. [1] And generally they don't, but the big-time snow pushers seem to really like them, so in reality you do have options even on the used market. It turns out that tractors aren't just for farmers.
idiotsecant 6mo ago
You're pretty confident for someone who fundamentally does not understand the issue. During harvest season even hours of delay can be disastrous for farms that are barely solvent in the first place. When your only option is to call the dealer and hope and pray they deign to visit your farm in a timely fashion it doesn't matter how good the warranty is or is not. Farmers need to be self sufficient because time is money and money is survival.
- 9rx 6mo ago
  It may be true that I do not understand whatever nondescript fundamental issue it is that you mention but don't elaborate on, but I most definitely understand the constraints of farming. Being a farmer, I live it each day. And as a farmer who owns equipment from across all the major brands (and some unheard of brands to boot), you are right that John Deere is most reliable for having parts in stock. I've been burned by the others having to wait a week on parts to be delivered from who knows where. That is not a fun position to be in. Repairability is where John Deere has the clear advantage. That is, just as you point out, why they are most popular. Nothing else matters if your equipment doesn't work. You pay a lot more for that luxury, but when the clock is ticking...
- greedo 6mo ago
  LOL. If you're a row cropper, you're running a big combine. Several grain trucks. Lots of expensive gear. Gear breaks down, that's why you buy something reliable, that has techs in your area who can fix things quickly, with a parts network that stocks stuff from decades back. Farmers are self-sufficient in incredible ways, but maintaining a multi-million dollar combine is pushing it. They can do oil changes, filter changes, replace consumables on implements, and do basic trouble shooting, but there are limits. And yes, time does matter. That's why farmers tend to help each other out a lot. Field catch fire because you didn't clean off your combine the previous day? It's going to be your neighbor coming out and helping firebreak your field so you lose 5 acres instead of 500. Can't afford to have your own sprayer for fertilizer, etc? You hit up the co-op. And farmers have crop insurance. Doesn't make them whole, but the idea that they're going to be eating dirt if they harvest a day late is silly.

by 9rx 6mo ago

justonceokay 6mo ago

> Those buying new don't care about repairs. Yes because thy live in the John Deere future. This was not always the case, surely. You used to be able to take high school classes to learn how to fix a combustion engine, even a new one!

saalweachter 6mo ago
Keep in mind that tractors are also getting massive. The economics of row-crop agriculture is "you gotta farm more land". That means spending as much time in the field as you can with as big a machine as you can. So not only is time you spend fixing your tractor yourself time you're not spending on your primary job, it's also working on a machine that's just monstrously huge. Delegating that work to a specialist with specialized tools is a very reasonable way to live.
- greedo 6mo ago
  Exactly! The old image of a guy on a Deere 4020 pulling an eight row implement is just unsustainable in today's agricultural system. Whether that system is sustainable is a different question.
  - saalweachter 6mo ago
    Incidentally, the 4020 is like the tractor to me. One of these days I'm going to buy one to restore, the way other men but the cars of their youth.
    - greedo 6mo ago
      Exactly. A 4020 is fun! It may not have as much torque and ground pressure may not be as good as a quad belt tractor, but for a lil farm where you just want to grow hay or screw around?
  - 9rx 6mo ago
    > The old image of a guy on a Deere 4020 pulling an eight row implement is just unsustainable in today's agricultural system. That entirely depends on your business goals. If you want to leverage debt to amass wealth you need scale to eke out a living after the debt burden takes most of your potential profit. The 4020 is going to fall well short of what is required there. Those who see farming as an income source rather than a wealth generator, however, don't need scale and can do quite well with the venerable 4020. Eight rows is plenty when you don't have the bank breathing down your neck wondering if you are going to cover your six figure loan payment this month. It's a lot like the business of tech, really. Some want to build the startup that never turns a profit but sells for billions years into the future, while others want to build the small "mom and pop" that offers a lifestyle, even if it never makes them rich. Both are valid and viable approaches. It depends on what you want out of it.
- vablings 6mo ago
  The issue is that the specialized employees is not someone you hire on payroll who has access to tools you purchase. They must be a John Deere employee who comes from out of state and costs you $$$$$$ to calibrate a sensor that could just be a simple menu button and a 20 second wait
  - saalweachter 6mo ago
    I mean, sure, right to repair and all that, but to be clear, unless you have like 50+ tractors to maintain, it's not going to make economic sense to have a full time employee to repair them. You still want to call out, you just want the option of calling someone local with more competitive rates and a faster response time.
  - greedo 6mo ago
    JD techs are all over the Midwest. No one is coming from out of state to work on your combine.
  - 9rx 6mo ago
    If John Deere is sending a tech, you've encountered something that could never be just a simple menu button. You've found a major flaw that they need to investigate in detail. John Deere would never send a tech for routine troubleshooting/repairs. That falls on the local dealership franchises. Their employees are not John Deere employees.
    - vablings 6mo ago
      No, sadly not. John Deere is very anti right to repair, and they will do anything to make you call up an authorized tech. There are authorized dealers who are not John Deere directly, but they are completely subservient to John Deere (they have to be otherwise they will not get access to the software tooling required to fix equipment), the semantic difference to a farmer is inconsequential, you will be overcharged[1] and scalped because the consequences of not paying is a multi-million-dollar heap of scrap because you cannot fix it yourself. There are no independent tools to work on this equipment because selling a license to a 3rd party software would be in breach 1201 of the DMCA [1]: https://apnews.com/article/john-deere-repair-lawsuit-settlement-595d4b089689cd94418991326275b68d https://apnews.com/article/john-deere-repair-lawsuit-settlem... [2]: https://apnews.com/article/deere-farm-repair-tractors-monopoly-85c18d35a1e0999decb535aa5d7c358e https://apnews.com/article/deere-farm-repair-tractors-monopo...
HeyLaughingBoy 6mo ago
You still can. My 26-year-old took automotive shop when he was a Junior in HS. Of course, we live in a rural school district...

cucumber3732842 6mo ago

That's not true for commercial users the way it is for private cars. Even if you have a service contract you're still gonna be pissed at the downtime cost of having a tech drag their ass out to wherever you are to initiate a forced regen or something.

9rx 6mo ago
> you're still gonna be pissed at the downtime cost of having a tech drag their ass out to wherever you are You might be pissed that the machine malfunctioned at all, but you kind of have to accept that if you want to be in the business. It comes with the territory. But you are not going to personally travel all the way from the office out to the field to fix it. That's insanity. The small farmer who has to do it all to make the business viable has more reason to want to fix it himself, but they live on the used market. The small farmer can't afford those new machines. Have you seen how expensive new equipment is? And that is exactly what Ursa is gambling on here: That if they remove all but the bare necessities that they can get the price point of new down to something small farmers can actually afford. However, it remains to be seen if that is compelling enough. Not having all the modern conveniences does take its toll on your mind and body after a long day in the field. A modern-spec used machine may still be more appealing to the small farmer who has to operate his own equipment — and let's face the harsh reality here: even if you aren't personally going to operate it, hired help isn't coming if you don't give them the most luxurious equipment available. They can just as easily go work for the farm that was willing to invest in it.

wolttam 6mo ago

The existence of this startup and their early demand seems to refute your point.

9rx 6mo ago
What early demand are you seeing, exactly? The article does indicate that they plan to ramp up production in 2026, but no mention of actual sales. It is quite possible that they are increasing production thinking that they need to roll them out to dealer lots to gain any traction. In fact, their TractorHouse profile shows that they are still struggling to sell last year's models. If there was demand, why hasn't that demand already gobbled up the stock? "I guess it would be cool to own one if it was given to me for free" isn't demand.
- righthand 6mo ago
  They need to swing the pendulum back, the current problem is that there is now a whole generation about to take over from the previous and the new gen has never had to use a non-John Deere a tractor. If they could evangelize their product as the “smarter farmer that doesn’t need all that tech” then they might have success.
  - greedo 6mo ago
    You should know that there are alternatives to green machines; Case, Massey Ferguson, Fendt etc.
    - righthand 6mo ago
      I know but for the sake of timeliness I’m not writing out every tractor company. Further John Deere has led the way on the current state of tractors.
    - saalweachter 6mo ago
      Oh hey, do you happen to know if there's any tool incompatibility in the modern electronics? The other thing about tractors is that the three point hitches, PTOs, etc etc, have been standardized forever, so there's very little lock in in terms of, swap out your JD for and IH and away you go, so I'm curious if eg modern seed drills have any fancy tech which locks you in.

sodapopcan 6mo ago

> Those buying new don't care about repairs. huh, why not?

9rx 6mo ago
Because it's not an effective use of their time. New farm equipment buyers are running big businesses. Shifting their focus away from the business to repair equipment would be as silly as the CEO of Google personally replacing a failed hard drive on an employee's workstation. There is an industry out there that is already worried about the repairs for you. You, not being in that industry, don't need to be. Like before, those next in line buying used equipment on smaller farms are more likely to have free time to spend on doing their own repairs and may even enjoy doing it as a hobby, but like before, the are limited to what's available on the used market. If the BTOs aren't buying Kubotas[1], it won't be a used option. This segment of farmers aren't choosing what enters the market initially. [1] And generally they don't, but the big-time snow pushers seem to really like them, so in reality you do have options even on the used market. It turns out that tractors aren't just for farmers.

idiotsecant 6mo ago

You're pretty confident for someone who fundamentally does not understand the issue. During harvest season even hours of delay can be disastrous for farms that are barely solvent in the first place. When your only option is to call the dealer and hope and pray they deign to visit your farm in a timely fashion it doesn't matter how good the warranty is or is not. Farmers need to be self sufficient because time is money and money is survival.

9rx 6mo ago
It may be true that I do not understand whatever nondescript fundamental issue it is that you mention but don't elaborate on, but I most definitely understand the constraints of farming. Being a farmer, I live it each day. And as a farmer who owns equipment from across all the major brands (and some unheard of brands to boot), you are right that John Deere is most reliable for having parts in stock. I've been burned by the others having to wait a week on parts to be delivered from who knows where. That is not a fun position to be in. Repairability is where John Deere has the clear advantage. That is, just as you point out, why they are most popular. Nothing else matters if your equipment doesn't work. You pay a lot more for that luxury, but when the clock is ticking...
greedo 6mo ago
LOL. If you're a row cropper, you're running a big combine. Several grain trucks. Lots of expensive gear. Gear breaks down, that's why you buy something reliable, that has techs in your area who can fix things quickly, with a parts network that stocks stuff from decades back. Farmers are self-sufficient in incredible ways, but maintaining a multi-million dollar combine is pushing it. They can do oil changes, filter changes, replace consumables on implements, and do basic trouble shooting, but there are limits. And yes, time does matter. That's why farmers tend to help each other out a lot. Field catch fire because you didn't clean off your combine the previous day? It's going to be your neighbor coming out and helping firebreak your field so you lose 5 acres instead of 500. Can't afford to have your own sprayer for fertilizer, etc? You hit up the co-op. And farmers have crop insurance. Doesn't make them whole, but the idea that they're going to be eating dirt if they harvest a day late is silly.