4 ms·

In general, contractor overhead in America is obscene, compared to Europe. We have a lot of regularly capture working to keep it that way, too.

by jeffbee 6mo ago

atourgates 6mo ago
DIY is viable if you're a bit nutters (like me). I just paid ~$35k (pre-now-expired-tax-break) to install a grid-tied 25kw ground mount system. I DIY'd everything except the connection between the array and the grid, which I paid an electrician to do, and the trenching which I paid my buddy with a mini-excavator to do. It was a bit of a PITA, but mostly because I didn't finally make up my mind to do it until October and had to have it constructed by Dec 31st to take advantage of the expiring tax credit. If I'd given myself 6 months, it would have still been a big project, but way less stressful. My neighbor's paid the same price to a contractor for a 11kw system. Even at 46°N, and with relatively cheap electricity, my system should pay for itself in 6-8 years.
- jeffbee 6mo ago
  Being an honorary or actual redneck in an exurban American setting will be the sweet spot for this. Your neighbor's rusting Bobcat is not useless after all. You have the space for ground mounting. I toyed with a rooftop solar DIY project with an electrician handling the AC side, but in my urban context PG&E wanted a six-figure fee for a subterranean transformer upgrade. In 2024 the state regulator established rules that PG&E can't charge for that kind of service upgrade so maybe I should start considering it again.
- cuttothechase 6mo ago
  Do you have a blog or a writeup about this? What would have been the cost if it was not DIY'd? Is this doable only in a rural/semi-urban settings?
  - hex4def6 6mo ago
    I was in the same boat. I'm in the bay area, did a roof mount system. ~9.5kW with Enphase microinverters. I think it cost be ~15k all in. The usual installer price is normally around $2.5-$3/w (so about $25k - $30k). I got someone to do the plans (because I was under the gun to get on NEM2), but that was $300 well spent. Did it all myself -- mounting, running conduit / wiring etc. Wasn't too bad. Probably about 3-4 Saturdays of work. Here's my install log: https://www.reddit.com/r/diySolar/comments/1c6jfjv/finally_done_with_my_diy_solar_install_field/ https://www.reddit.com/r/diySolar/comments/1c6jfjv/finally_d...
- folmar 6mo ago
  In EU it would be some $3k for inverter, $5k for panels, another $5k for cables, connectors and mounting and that's it if you DIY everything. Prices with VAT included.
  - zhivota 6mo ago
    Same in the Philippines here, and we're all buying the same Chinese materials at the end of the day so somehow Americans are getting really fleeced hard on this equipment. Payback time is 2-4 years. It reminds of healthcare and infrastructure in the US. When you really dig into why both are so expensive, it's literally every step. Every link in the chain between supplier and consumer is some kind of inefficient market, or burdened by regulations, etc. Americans are just so rich they don't care enough to see these huge margins and undercut the competition, which is what happens here and keeps markets much more efficient.
- namibj 6mo ago
  Modern cable trenching at least if you're not hitting rocks is to take a wet vac and a pressure washer and just cut a slit, make sure you got ergonomics sorted and a place to dump the sludge for drying (c.f. kiddie pool, or one of those pools that rely on the top inflated ring to keep the otherwise loose bag of water from spilling...except made from geotextile or something rock/dirt friendly that'll filter the sediment letting the water seep past) before you backfill.
scottyah 6mo ago
It all comes back to insurance- they're used to getting crazy sums of money because nobody questions the rates
- jeffbee 6mo ago
  The Common Law Theory of Everything
jauntywundrkind 6mo ago
We looked at trying to get some mini-split heat pumps for my mom's place & were getting quotes $30k figures for two modest units (it's a tiny well insulated house). I don't know what the frak is wrong with this nation; this is so fantastically worrying.
- projektfu 6mo ago
  Try looking up HVAC workers on thumbtack.
  - projektfu 6mo ago
    Since people seem to misunderstand what I'm talking about, if you call a major HVAC vendor you will get a high price, but they have spent a lot on advertising. If you buy the equipment and have someone install it, it can be a lot cheaper, and those installers can often help you source the equipment as well. Mini-split systems should be the cheapest to install but things like brick walls can make an aesthetic installation more difficult.
- rootusrootus 6mo ago
  HVAC is wildly variable, even more so than other trades in my experience. Get several quotes, there will be five digit differences between the top and bottom.
- ApolloFortyNine 6mo ago
  Home HVAC is the most obvious current regulatory caused scam in the US. Virginia just added an 'easier' license that 'only' requires two years of experience to receive (and 160 hours of formal training, but that's not the bad part obviously). Something like a minisplit though can literally be DIYed in under a day. With experience, a DIYer can do it in a couple hours. They're literally designed to be easily installed as a complete system. Even in Japan you can get one installed for under a grand (including the unit). In China it's obviously even cheaper. Obviously HVAC companies don't want it to be easier to get a license, they make boatloads on entire home systems and maintenace. Being able to just replace a broken unit for $600 would kill their entire business model. Electrical is a similar scam, though for some reason if you get enough quotes you can usually find one that isn't charging the equivalent of $1k/hr in labor like getting a mini-split from an HVAC company tends to be.
bredren 6mo ago
I am counting on physical, semi technical contract work to pay once SWE opportunities shrink to the point where it’s not worth it anymore. Now is the time to get handy if not already. Robotics /physical automation will lag info by a good stretch.

In general, contractor overhead in America is obscene, compared to Europe. We have a lot of regularly capture working to keep it that way, too.

by jeffbee 6mo ago

In general, contractor overhead in America is obscene, compared to Europe. We have a lot of regularly capture working to keep it that way, too.

atourgates 6mo ago

DIY is viable if you're a bit nutters (like me). I just paid ~$35k (pre-now-expired-tax-break) to install a grid-tied 25kw ground mount system. I DIY'd everything except the connection between the array and the grid, which I paid an electrician to do, and the trenching which I paid my buddy with a mini-excavator to do. It was a bit of a PITA, but mostly because I didn't finally make up my mind to do it until October and had to have it constructed by Dec 31st to take advantage of the expiring tax credit. If I'd given myself 6 months, it would have still been a big project, but way less stressful. My neighbor's paid the same price to a contractor for a 11kw system. Even at 46°N, and with relatively cheap electricity, my system should pay for itself in 6-8 years.

jeffbee 6mo ago
Being an honorary or actual redneck in an exurban American setting will be the sweet spot for this. Your neighbor's rusting Bobcat is not useless after all. You have the space for ground mounting. I toyed with a rooftop solar DIY project with an electrician handling the AC side, but in my urban context PG&E wanted a six-figure fee for a subterranean transformer upgrade. In 2024 the state regulator established rules that PG&E can't charge for that kind of service upgrade so maybe I should start considering it again.
cuttothechase 6mo ago
Do you have a blog or a writeup about this? What would have been the cost if it was not DIY'd? Is this doable only in a rural/semi-urban settings?
- hex4def6 6mo ago
  I was in the same boat. I'm in the bay area, did a roof mount system. ~9.5kW with Enphase microinverters. I think it cost be ~15k all in. The usual installer price is normally around $2.5-$3/w (so about $25k - $30k). I got someone to do the plans (because I was under the gun to get on NEM2), but that was $300 well spent. Did it all myself -- mounting, running conduit / wiring etc. Wasn't too bad. Probably about 3-4 Saturdays of work. Here's my install log: https://www.reddit.com/r/diySolar/comments/1c6jfjv/finally_done_with_my_diy_solar_install_field/ https://www.reddit.com/r/diySolar/comments/1c6jfjv/finally_d...
folmar 6mo ago
In EU it would be some $3k for inverter, $5k for panels, another $5k for cables, connectors and mounting and that's it if you DIY everything. Prices with VAT included.
- zhivota 6mo ago
  Same in the Philippines here, and we're all buying the same Chinese materials at the end of the day so somehow Americans are getting really fleeced hard on this equipment. Payback time is 2-4 years. It reminds of healthcare and infrastructure in the US. When you really dig into why both are so expensive, it's literally every step. Every link in the chain between supplier and consumer is some kind of inefficient market, or burdened by regulations, etc. Americans are just so rich they don't care enough to see these huge margins and undercut the competition, which is what happens here and keeps markets much more efficient.
namibj 6mo ago
Modern cable trenching at least if you're not hitting rocks is to take a wet vac and a pressure washer and just cut a slit, make sure you got ergonomics sorted and a place to dump the sludge for drying (c.f. kiddie pool, or one of those pools that rely on the top inflated ring to keep the otherwise loose bag of water from spilling...except made from geotextile or something rock/dirt friendly that'll filter the sediment letting the water seep past) before you backfill.

scottyah 6mo ago

It all comes back to insurance- they're used to getting crazy sums of money because nobody questions the rates

jeffbee 6mo ago
The Common Law Theory of Everything

jauntywundrkind 6mo ago

We looked at trying to get some mini-split heat pumps for my mom's place & were getting quotes $30k figures for two modest units (it's a tiny well insulated house). I don't know what the frak is wrong with this nation; this is so fantastically worrying.

projektfu 6mo ago
Try looking up HVAC workers on thumbtack.
- projektfu 6mo ago
  Since people seem to misunderstand what I'm talking about, if you call a major HVAC vendor you will get a high price, but they have spent a lot on advertising. If you buy the equipment and have someone install it, it can be a lot cheaper, and those installers can often help you source the equipment as well. Mini-split systems should be the cheapest to install but things like brick walls can make an aesthetic installation more difficult.
rootusrootus 6mo ago
HVAC is wildly variable, even more so than other trades in my experience. Get several quotes, there will be five digit differences between the top and bottom.
ApolloFortyNine 6mo ago
Home HVAC is the most obvious current regulatory caused scam in the US. Virginia just added an 'easier' license that 'only' requires two years of experience to receive (and 160 hours of formal training, but that's not the bad part obviously). Something like a minisplit though can literally be DIYed in under a day. With experience, a DIYer can do it in a couple hours. They're literally designed to be easily installed as a complete system. Even in Japan you can get one installed for under a grand (including the unit). In China it's obviously even cheaper. Obviously HVAC companies don't want it to be easier to get a license, they make boatloads on entire home systems and maintenace. Being able to just replace a broken unit for $600 would kill their entire business model. Electrical is a similar scam, though for some reason if you get enough quotes you can usually find one that isn't charging the equivalent of $1k/hr in labor like getting a mini-split from an HVAC company tends to be.

bredren 6mo ago

I am counting on physical, semi technical contract work to pay once SWE opportunities shrink to the point where it’s not worth it anymore. Now is the time to get handy if not already. Robotics /physical automation will lag info by a good stretch.