6 ms·

>> You’d think essentially free energy would sell itself I think it would if it was indeed “essentially free”. Rooftop solar is unfortunately a racket though,

>> You’d think essentially free energy would sell itself I think it would if it was indeed “essentially free”. Rooftop solar is unfortunately a racket though, and companies price-gouge like crazy and also collude to keep prices inflated.

CalRobert 6mo ago
One of the things I like most about balcony solar is that you can DIY it (at least, in the places I know that have approved it) instead of getting scammed.
- BizarroLand 6mo ago
  I have one of those terrible fake balconies on the front of my house. I am working on replacing it with a real deck/carport combo and will probably put 600w solar over it, should be room for 4-6 of them. That will be a 2-3kw solar install, not enough to replace my entire draw by a long shot, but enough to carve a pretty big dent out of it. I'm already going to be spending $10k-$15k on the deck/carport install plus the french doors to replace the window looking over the fake balcony, so what's another $3k-$5k for a modest solar install?
- jauntywundrkind 6mo ago
  The disruption from below cycle is coming on hard here. I'm so excited for balcony solar. This is going to expand solar access for so many people & be such a great thing! It's also such radically better priced equipment when it's consumer focused. My little Bluetti Elite 100 v2 was $400. It's a 1kWh battery. But as much as anything I bought it because it takes 800W of solar input! On this tiny cheap thing! That's better solar input density than most of these stations, but also, the other guys don't really have an excuse: if you are making a power station like this, it's such a minimal extra cost to integrate a decent solar buck MPPT controller controller on too. 60v 20a capable mosfets transistors have become unfathomably high performance & affordable. There's all sorts of really amazing units being built. Zendure SolarFlow 2400 Pro doesn't come with batteries but is ~ 1500$ for a 3000w input unit. Not quite as good a proposition (2W:$1 again, but no battery) but is more home sized, to put down another data point. Lots of players & competition, vs the "buy Victron" age! (Still, that Victron reliability.) https://www.notebookcheck.net/Zendure-SolarFlow-2400-Pro-review-Is-the-XXL-balcony-solar-system-with-2-400-W-AI-worth-it.1261424.0.html https://www.notebookcheck.net/Zendure-SolarFlow-2400-Pro-rev... When there's so many contractors involved, it's like, yeah, give me the good expensive electronics; the marginal cost is whatever. I like how balcony solar is so disruptive from below though, how it breeds a cost conscious
chung8123 6mo ago
There are so many scams in the solar industry. I feel like a ton of installers joined just to make a quick buck with no effort.
- twoodfin 6mo ago
  This tends to happen when a lot of government “free money” is on the table. See also: War profiteering.
unethical_ban 6mo ago
Sure it isn't up front, and there's probably something to be said about scammers seeing green with subsidy money. But the very idea of not being dependent on the grid or fossil fuels, if one can afford it and costs are comparable, should sell itself. But my dad watches Fox News so he brings up lies like how bad wind turbines are for the environment (coal anyone?) or how we shouldn't make ourselves dependent on China for solar (as if we aren't dependent on a lot of bad hombres for our current energy mix or as if receiving solar makes us dependent at all). --- Edit: HN's conversation throttler childishly patronized me for "posting too fast". At least do me the honor of telling me you don't like what I'm saying, instead of telling me I'm posting too quickly when I'm making 1 message/hour. --- In response to dataflow below: It still reveals an ignorant cult-like derision for renewables that isn't explained by reality. The people who gleefully mock the issues with renewables do it because they have been trained to want renewables to fail, and to see active support for renewables as a signal for softness and liberalism.
- parpfish 6mo ago
  My local town Facebook group gleefully mocks local solar each time it snows/is cloudy, as if. There’s never been anything (eg, a war in the Mideast) that could disrupting fossil fuels pricing and availability…
  - dataflow 6mo ago
    > My local town Facebook group gleefully mocks local solar each time it snows/is cloudy, as if. There’s never been anything (eg, a war in the Mideast) that could disrupting fossil fuels pricing and availability… Your counterargument is even worse than theirs. The predictability, frequency, severity, mitigability, etc. of these are extremely different.
    - kaibee 6mo ago
      > predictability I'm giving this one to renewables. > frequency I guess technically the weather is probably bad for solar or wind more often than geopolitical disturbances to the oil market but, if we go by when its bad for solar _AND_ wind, I feel like I'd need to see the data. > severity Tied, maybe? Depends if we're including like, the 70s and if we're looking at just from a US standpoint or if we're including Europe. > mitigability I feel lot more confident in my ability to add more panels than to negotiate reopening the Strait of Hormuz.
pjc50 6mo ago
American solar installer companies do seem to charge way more than European or British ones. I got 3.9kW installed almost ten years ago for just £5500, including all the paperwork for feed-in-tariffs. It has long since paid for itself just in subsidy, let alone actual consumption.
- jeffbee 6mo ago
  In general, contractor overhead in America is obscene, compared to Europe. We have a lot of regularly capture working to keep it that way, too.
  - atourgates 6mo ago
    DIY is viable if you're a bit nutters (like me). I just paid ~$35k (pre-now-expired-tax-break) to install a grid-tied 25kw ground mount system. I DIY'd everything except the connection between the array and the grid, which I paid an electrician to do, and the trenching which I paid my buddy with a mini-excavator to do. It was a bit of a PITA, but mostly because I didn't finally make up my mind to do it until October and had to have it constructed by Dec 31st to take advantage of the expiring tax credit. If I'd given myself 6 months, it would have still been a big project, but way less stressful. My neighbor's paid the same price to a contractor for a 11kw system. Even at 46°N, and with relatively cheap electricity, my system should pay for itself in 6-8 years.
    - jeffbee 6mo ago
      Being an honorary or actual redneck in an exurban American setting will be the sweet spot for this. Your neighbor's rusting Bobcat is not useless after all. You have the space for ground mounting. I toyed with a rooftop solar DIY project with an electrician handling the AC side, but in my urban context PG&E wanted a six-figure fee for a subterranean transformer upgrade. In 2024 the state regulator established rules that PG&E can't charge for that kind of service upgrade so maybe I should start considering it again.
    - cuttothechase 6mo ago
namibj 6mo ago
Use simple roof geometry. Use frameless panels in rails/frames made for keeping the building dry under exposed glass roof. Put regular insulation underneath, don't just expose it. Profit. Just hard to get the stuff it seems, mostly because the market has a fetish for early-gen retrofit/independent solar panels, as far as mounting goes.

CalRobert 6mo ago

One of the things I like most about balcony solar is that you can DIY it (at least, in the places I know that have approved it) instead of getting scammed.

BizarroLand 6mo ago
I have one of those terrible fake balconies on the front of my house. I am working on replacing it with a real deck/carport combo and will probably put 600w solar over it, should be room for 4-6 of them. That will be a 2-3kw solar install, not enough to replace my entire draw by a long shot, but enough to carve a pretty big dent out of it. I'm already going to be spending $10k-$15k on the deck/carport install plus the french doors to replace the window looking over the fake balcony, so what's another $3k-$5k for a modest solar install?
jauntywundrkind 6mo ago
The disruption from below cycle is coming on hard here. I'm so excited for balcony solar. This is going to expand solar access for so many people & be such a great thing! It's also such radically better priced equipment when it's consumer focused. My little Bluetti Elite 100 v2 was $400. It's a 1kWh battery. But as much as anything I bought it because it takes 800W of solar input! On this tiny cheap thing! That's better solar input density than most of these stations, but also, the other guys don't really have an excuse: if you are making a power station like this, it's such a minimal extra cost to integrate a decent solar buck MPPT controller controller on too. 60v 20a capable mosfets transistors have become unfathomably high performance & affordable. There's all sorts of really amazing units being built. Zendure SolarFlow 2400 Pro doesn't come with batteries but is ~ 1500$ for a 3000w input unit. Not quite as good a proposition (2W:$1 again, but no battery) but is more home sized, to put down another data point. Lots of players & competition, vs the "buy Victron" age! (Still, that Victron reliability.) https://www.notebookcheck.net/Zendure-SolarFlow-2400-Pro-review-Is-the-XXL-balcony-solar-system-with-2-400-W-AI-worth-it.1261424.0.html https://www.notebookcheck.net/Zendure-SolarFlow-2400-Pro-rev... When there's so many contractors involved, it's like, yeah, give me the good expensive electronics; the marginal cost is whatever. I like how balcony solar is so disruptive from below though, how it breeds a cost conscious

chung8123 6mo ago

There are so many scams in the solar industry. I feel like a ton of installers joined just to make a quick buck with no effort.

twoodfin 6mo ago
This tends to happen when a lot of government “free money” is on the table. See also: War profiteering.

unethical_ban 6mo ago

Sure it isn't up front, and there's probably something to be said about scammers seeing green with subsidy money. But the very idea of not being dependent on the grid or fossil fuels, if one can afford it and costs are comparable, should sell itself. But my dad watches Fox News so he brings up lies like how bad wind turbines are for the environment (coal anyone?) or how we shouldn't make ourselves dependent on China for solar (as if we aren't dependent on a lot of bad hombres for our current energy mix or as if receiving solar makes us dependent at all). --- Edit: HN's conversation throttler childishly patronized me for "posting too fast". At least do me the honor of telling me you don't like what I'm saying, instead of telling me I'm posting too quickly when I'm making 1 message/hour. --- In response to dataflow below: It still reveals an ignorant cult-like derision for renewables that isn't explained by reality. The people who gleefully mock the issues with renewables do it because they have been trained to want renewables to fail, and to see active support for renewables as a signal for softness and liberalism.

parpfish 6mo ago
My local town Facebook group gleefully mocks local solar each time it snows/is cloudy, as if. There’s never been anything (eg, a war in the Mideast) that could disrupting fossil fuels pricing and availability…
- dataflow 6mo ago
  > My local town Facebook group gleefully mocks local solar each time it snows/is cloudy, as if. There’s never been anything (eg, a war in the Mideast) that could disrupting fossil fuels pricing and availability… Your counterargument is even worse than theirs. The predictability, frequency, severity, mitigability, etc. of these are extremely different.
  - kaibee 6mo ago
    > predictability I'm giving this one to renewables. > frequency I guess technically the weather is probably bad for solar or wind more often than geopolitical disturbances to the oil market but, if we go by when its bad for solar _AND_ wind, I feel like I'd need to see the data. > severity Tied, maybe? Depends if we're including like, the 70s and if we're looking at just from a US standpoint or if we're including Europe. > mitigability I feel lot more confident in my ability to add more panels than to negotiate reopening the Strait of Hormuz.

pjc50 6mo ago

American solar installer companies do seem to charge way more than European or British ones. I got 3.9kW installed almost ten years ago for just £5500, including all the paperwork for feed-in-tariffs. It has long since paid for itself just in subsidy, let alone actual consumption.

jeffbee 6mo ago
In general, contractor overhead in America is obscene, compared to Europe. We have a lot of regularly capture working to keep it that way, too.
- atourgates 6mo ago
  DIY is viable if you're a bit nutters (like me). I just paid ~$35k (pre-now-expired-tax-break) to install a grid-tied 25kw ground mount system. I DIY'd everything except the connection between the array and the grid, which I paid an electrician to do, and the trenching which I paid my buddy with a mini-excavator to do. It was a bit of a PITA, but mostly because I didn't finally make up my mind to do it until October and had to have it constructed by Dec 31st to take advantage of the expiring tax credit. If I'd given myself 6 months, it would have still been a big project, but way less stressful. My neighbor's paid the same price to a contractor for a 11kw system. Even at 46°N, and with relatively cheap electricity, my system should pay for itself in 6-8 years.
  - jeffbee 6mo ago
    Being an honorary or actual redneck in an exurban American setting will be the sweet spot for this. Your neighbor's rusting Bobcat is not useless after all. You have the space for ground mounting. I toyed with a rooftop solar DIY project with an electrician handling the AC side, but in my urban context PG&E wanted a six-figure fee for a subterranean transformer upgrade. In 2024 the state regulator established rules that PG&E can't charge for that kind of service upgrade so maybe I should start considering it again.
  - cuttothechase 6mo ago

namibj 6mo ago

Use simple roof geometry. Use frameless panels in rails/frames made for keeping the building dry under exposed glass roof. Put regular insulation underneath, don't just expose it. Profit. Just hard to get the stuff it seems, mostly because the market has a fetish for early-gen retrofit/independent solar panels, as far as mounting goes.