3 ms·

yes? this isn't a "just following orders isnt a defence" case. Almost everyone at meta did nothing of the sort of bad stuff. There are nearly a hundred thousand

yes? this isn't a "just following orders isnt a defence" case. Almost everyone at meta did nothing of the sort of bad stuff. There are nearly a hundred thousand people working at meta. This is a "being a part of an extremely large group of people, some entirely separate members of the group are doing bad stuff" Are there no groups you are a part of where members have done bad things? are you sure? Do you seriously blame the death star technicians? The cooks at the death star canteen? I find that extremely hard to understand. Do you dislike people from entire countries because of things their governments did too?

tacker2000 6mo ago
You are equating countries with corporations now? How does that even remotely make sense?
iamacyborg 6mo ago
> Do you dislike people from entire countries because of things their governments did too? You can’t choose where you’re born, you can choose who you work for.
ohyoutravel 6mo ago
I’m open to the concept of there being some scale of culpability where the janitors at Meta contracted from some third party company are less culpable than the c suite. But as a software engineer who has chosen to work there, you’re the one building the planet destroying death laser, so not only are you in a very privileged, specialized position, you’re directly contributing to the effects. Also Meta isn’t a nation state.
- RugnirViking 6mo ago
  I do not work at meta. I have never even been to America. Chill on the personal assumptions...
  - ohyoutravel 6mo ago
    Respond to the substance, don’t give a cop out response.
    - RugnirViking 6mo ago
      my arguments above already respond to the substance of what you have written, you haven't adressed them, merely restated the position I objected to at the start. I'm no debate lord, merely expressed my dislike of the baying for blood people clearly have here, pointed at everyone seemingly except the actual people responsible
      - ohyoutravel 6mo ago
        I’ve been seeing this sort of response more and more lately. :(
        salawat 6mo ago
        You will. Especially as it becomes more and more uncomfortable for people as they are forced to try to rationalize away their part in all of this. Don't think of it necessarily as a cop-out, but a sign that the person at least has either A) working empathy circuits and isn't likely the sort to focus on, or B) has at least started to see the tide is changing and has had to recalibrate their stance formerly accommodating a I-can-callous-about-this-without-consequence viewpoint, and is now taking on shades of "Oh, I actually kind of have to be concerned about effects on other people or it may blow back on me." Either way, the effort isn't wasted. The social dynamic still shifts, even if it's for pointedly unideal reasons. Note it, and move on. The aim is change for the better. If people are talking about it, even in a deescalatory manner, that still means the trajectory is moving. Don't lose heart. Keep your conviction hot, tight, and focused.
        deleted 6mo ago
        [deleted]
        6mo ago
SecretDreams 6mo ago
> Do you dislike people from entire countries because of things their governments did too? When their governments are democratically elected, sometimes, ya. I don't want to give you any spoilers, but there's maybe a reason the average American is looked at least favourably as of late. There are also cultural beefs that have existed for longer than I've been alive that are not even all that rational, but continue to persist. Whole cultures hating each other. > Do you seriously blame the death star technicians? The cooks at the death star canteen? I think someone from Aldereen might have a hard time grabbing a beer with a death star technician. Most people probably understand that blame is not equally shared, but that those technicians were on the wrong side of history. Exceptions might include people forcefully enslaved to work on the death star - and, from a distance, an external observer still would not know the difference at first glance between forceful participation, passive participation, and active participation. It often takes time/generations to heal from the pain of their parents choices - whether those choices were active or passive. Sins of the father and all that (though I think it's unfair to put parental misdeeds onto their kids, it also historically happens a lot).
- RugnirViking 6mo ago
  > there's maybe a reason the average American is looked at least favourably as of late I understand THAT its happening, but do you think that's right? moral? would you be happy about it if you were a random american? one who had voted against whatever is happening there? What about one who couldn't vote at all?
  - hgoel 6mo ago
    Were Meta employees forced to work for Meta? Not that I agree with the idea of blaming all Meta employees (e.g. janitors, drivers etc don't deserve the blame), but I do think the ones doing the computer work deserve some blame.
    - RugnirViking 6mo ago
      Do all of the hundred thousand meta employees have a say in what happens? Do they even have as much say as citizens in a democracy? I can agree that the teams working on the specific features have quite a lot of blame. Those asked to implement immoral ads/algorithm stuff. But how many are those people as a proportion of the entire staff?
troupo 6mo ago
"I chose to work as a developer for this supranational corporation, but nothing bad this corporation does is any reflection on me personally, I only work there, making sure this supranational corporation keeps existing through my work. It's also the same thing as being born in a country."
- bigfatkitten 6mo ago
  “I applied, worked hard and went through an insane interview loop to be born in this country.”
deleted 6mo ago
[deleted]
bigfatkitten 6mo ago
My great grandfather worked at the V-2 rocket factory near Nordhausen during WW2. This factory used slave labour from the nearby Dora concentration camp to build the rockets. While he wasn’t SS, and he never pushed anyone into a gas chamber, he did plenty to enable Nazi atrocities during his time there.
wpietri 6mo ago
> Do you seriously blame the death star technicians? The cooks at the death star canteen? I find that extremely hard to understand. You must be working very hard to not understand that, as it's very simple. They signed up for a job on a thing called the Death Star. Its only job is to commit genocide at a planetary scale. They are morally responsible for the consequences of their choices. We all are. Getting paid doesn't negate that. If anything, it amplifies it.

tacker2000 6mo ago

You are equating countries with corporations now? How does that even remotely make sense?

iamacyborg 6mo ago

> Do you dislike people from entire countries because of things their governments did too? You can’t choose where you’re born, you can choose who you work for.

ohyoutravel 6mo ago

I’m open to the concept of there being some scale of culpability where the janitors at Meta contracted from some third party company are less culpable than the c suite. But as a software engineer who has chosen to work there, you’re the one building the planet destroying death laser, so not only are you in a very privileged, specialized position, you’re directly contributing to the effects. Also Meta isn’t a nation state.

RugnirViking 6mo ago
I do not work at meta. I have never even been to America. Chill on the personal assumptions...
- ohyoutravel 6mo ago
  Respond to the substance, don’t give a cop out response.
  - RugnirViking 6mo ago
    my arguments above already respond to the substance of what you have written, you haven't adressed them, merely restated the position I objected to at the start. I'm no debate lord, merely expressed my dislike of the baying for blood people clearly have here, pointed at everyone seemingly except the actual people responsible
    - ohyoutravel 6mo ago
      I’ve been seeing this sort of response more and more lately. :(
      - salawat 6mo ago
        You will. Especially as it becomes more and more uncomfortable for people as they are forced to try to rationalize away their part in all of this. Don't think of it necessarily as a cop-out, but a sign that the person at least has either A) working empathy circuits and isn't likely the sort to focus on, or B) has at least started to see the tide is changing and has had to recalibrate their stance formerly accommodating a I-can-callous-about-this-without-consequence viewpoint, and is now taking on shades of "Oh, I actually kind of have to be concerned about effects on other people or it may blow back on me." Either way, the effort isn't wasted. The social dynamic still shifts, even if it's for pointedly unideal reasons. Note it, and move on. The aim is change for the better. If people are talking about it, even in a deescalatory manner, that still means the trajectory is moving. Don't lose heart. Keep your conviction hot, tight, and focused.
        deleted 6mo ago
        [deleted]
        6mo ago

SecretDreams 6mo ago

> Do you dislike people from entire countries because of things their governments did too? When their governments are democratically elected, sometimes, ya. I don't want to give you any spoilers, but there's maybe a reason the average American is looked at least favourably as of late. There are also cultural beefs that have existed for longer than I've been alive that are not even all that rational, but continue to persist. Whole cultures hating each other. > Do you seriously blame the death star technicians? The cooks at the death star canteen? I think someone from Aldereen might have a hard time grabbing a beer with a death star technician. Most people probably understand that blame is not equally shared, but that those technicians were on the wrong side of history. Exceptions might include people forcefully enslaved to work on the death star - and, from a distance, an external observer still would not know the difference at first glance between forceful participation, passive participation, and active participation. It often takes time/generations to heal from the pain of their parents choices - whether those choices were active or passive. Sins of the father and all that (though I think it's unfair to put parental misdeeds onto their kids, it also historically happens a lot).

RugnirViking 6mo ago
> there's maybe a reason the average American is looked at least favourably as of late I understand THAT its happening, but do you think that's right? moral? would you be happy about it if you were a random american? one who had voted against whatever is happening there? What about one who couldn't vote at all?
- hgoel 6mo ago
  Were Meta employees forced to work for Meta? Not that I agree with the idea of blaming all Meta employees (e.g. janitors, drivers etc don't deserve the blame), but I do think the ones doing the computer work deserve some blame.
  - RugnirViking 6mo ago
    Do all of the hundred thousand meta employees have a say in what happens? Do they even have as much say as citizens in a democracy? I can agree that the teams working on the specific features have quite a lot of blame. Those asked to implement immoral ads/algorithm stuff. But how many are those people as a proportion of the entire staff?

troupo 6mo ago

"I chose to work as a developer for this supranational corporation, but nothing bad this corporation does is any reflection on me personally, I only work there, making sure this supranational corporation keeps existing through my work. It's also the same thing as being born in a country."

bigfatkitten 6mo ago
“I applied, worked hard and went through an insane interview loop to be born in this country.”

deleted 6mo ago

[deleted]

bigfatkitten 6mo ago

My great grandfather worked at the V-2 rocket factory near Nordhausen during WW2. This factory used slave labour from the nearby Dora concentration camp to build the rockets. While he wasn’t SS, and he never pushed anyone into a gas chamber, he did plenty to enable Nazi atrocities during his time there.

wpietri 6mo ago

> Do you seriously blame the death star technicians? The cooks at the death star canteen? I find that extremely hard to understand. You must be working very hard to not understand that, as it's very simple. They signed up for a job on a thing called the Death Star. Its only job is to commit genocide at a planetary scale. They are morally responsible for the consequences of their choices. We all are. Getting paid doesn't negate that. If anything, it amplifies it.