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> It sounds like ICE buyers are subsidizing EV buyers. Given how long we have all been subsidizing ICE buyers, I think it is fair to spread the love around a l

> It sounds like ICE buyers are subsidizing EV buyers. Given how long we have all been subsidizing ICE buyers, I think it is fair to spread the love around a little.

graemep 6mo ago
How are ICE buyers subsidised?
- bzzzt 6mo ago
  Some countries literally subsidize gasoline, but even if your country does not it probably supports oil companies with tax breaks ('creating jobs'). There also are lots of untaxed externalities like global warming and exhaust pollution.
  - graemep 6mo ago
    Untaxed externalities are very different from subsidies. We do not generally tax externalities. I live in the UK where we pay heavy taxes on fuel and we pay higher taxes on vehicles with higher CO2 emissions.
    - bzzzt 6mo ago
      They are not so different: it's the same private/public money dynamic but money flowing in different ways. For consumers it doesn't really matter if it's a tax or 'mandatory levy'. For instance: in the EU it's mandatory to pay for disposal of consumer goods, which is priced in with every purchase. That's as close as a 'disposal tax' as you can get.
- joe_mamba 6mo ago
  In Germany for example(and other EU countries) you get money back from the government on your tax return for your daily commutes to work, if you live far away enough from work to qualify for commuter subsidies. Those subsidies you get no matter which transportation you use, bicycle, train, car, etc. And plenty of people commute by car when their work/home is far away and remote enough for cycle/public transportation to not be very useful or convenient. Funny how their solution was to subsidize burning fossil fuels for car commutes to the office instead of, oh I don't know, MANDATING WFH!, given Germans are such staunched green environmentalists. Sure, let's turn off nuclear and ban plastic straws, but let's also subsidize the generation of diesel, brake pad and tire fine dust particles we breathe in, for commuting by car to work. We can't forget our car industry lobbyists.
  - graemep 6mo ago
    I am guessing its a deduction in calculating your taxable income. You also say it applies to all forms of transport. That is not a subsidy. It is not different from allowing a factory that uses a fuel to deduct the cost of that fuel in calculating their taxable profits.
- rootusrootus 6mo ago
  In the US, at least, we directly subsidize fossil fuels to the tune of billions of dollars a year -- just counting the above-board, direct subsidies through legislation. If you count indirect subsidies, the figures are staggering. But put a $7500 point-of-sale rebate on an electric car and people go nuts. So the solution is either make the EV subsidy less obvious, like we do for fossil fuels, or try to educate people on where their tax dollars actually go. The former is more feasible, certainly, in the modern political environment where ideology rules over facts.
  - graemep 6mo ago
    The comment I replied to was "Given how long we have all been subsidizing ICE buyers, I think it is fair to spread the love around a little." The subsidies you talk about are US specific and was in rely to one about ICE buyers subsidising EV buyers in the UK. In the UK we pay heavy fuel duties and car taxes so ICEs have not been subsidised any time recently, but, have been very heavily taxed. There is no fairness in taxing UK ICE owners for subsidies received by American ICE owners.

> It sounds like ICE buyers are subsidizing EV buyers. Given how long we have all been subsidizing ICE buyers, I think it is fair to spread the love around a little.

graemep 6mo ago

How are ICE buyers subsidised?

bzzzt 6mo ago
Some countries literally subsidize gasoline, but even if your country does not it probably supports oil companies with tax breaks ('creating jobs'). There also are lots of untaxed externalities like global warming and exhaust pollution.
- graemep 6mo ago
  Untaxed externalities are very different from subsidies. We do not generally tax externalities. I live in the UK where we pay heavy taxes on fuel and we pay higher taxes on vehicles with higher CO2 emissions.
  - bzzzt 6mo ago
    They are not so different: it's the same private/public money dynamic but money flowing in different ways. For consumers it doesn't really matter if it's a tax or 'mandatory levy'. For instance: in the EU it's mandatory to pay for disposal of consumer goods, which is priced in with every purchase. That's as close as a 'disposal tax' as you can get.
joe_mamba 6mo ago
In Germany for example(and other EU countries) you get money back from the government on your tax return for your daily commutes to work, if you live far away enough from work to qualify for commuter subsidies. Those subsidies you get no matter which transportation you use, bicycle, train, car, etc. And plenty of people commute by car when their work/home is far away and remote enough for cycle/public transportation to not be very useful or convenient. Funny how their solution was to subsidize burning fossil fuels for car commutes to the office instead of, oh I don't know, MANDATING WFH!, given Germans are such staunched green environmentalists. Sure, let's turn off nuclear and ban plastic straws, but let's also subsidize the generation of diesel, brake pad and tire fine dust particles we breathe in, for commuting by car to work. We can't forget our car industry lobbyists.
- graemep 6mo ago
  I am guessing its a deduction in calculating your taxable income. You also say it applies to all forms of transport. That is not a subsidy. It is not different from allowing a factory that uses a fuel to deduct the cost of that fuel in calculating their taxable profits.
rootusrootus 6mo ago
In the US, at least, we directly subsidize fossil fuels to the tune of billions of dollars a year -- just counting the above-board, direct subsidies through legislation. If you count indirect subsidies, the figures are staggering. But put a $7500 point-of-sale rebate on an electric car and people go nuts. So the solution is either make the EV subsidy less obvious, like we do for fossil fuels, or try to educate people on where their tax dollars actually go. The former is more feasible, certainly, in the modern political environment where ideology rules over facts.
- graemep 6mo ago
  The comment I replied to was "Given how long we have all been subsidizing ICE buyers, I think it is fair to spread the love around a little." The subsidies you talk about are US specific and was in rely to one about ICE buyers subsidising EV buyers in the UK. In the UK we pay heavy fuel duties and car taxes so ICEs have not been subsidised any time recently, but, have been very heavily taxed. There is no fairness in taxing UK ICE owners for subsidies received by American ICE owners.