5 ms·

That's crazy. But coming from someone who wrote a book on retail fraud and worked as a retail fraud analyst for several years... you could have just walked stra

That's crazy. But coming from someone who wrote a book on retail fraud and worked as a retail fraud analyst for several years... you could have just walked straight out with those items. Transacting was your way of leaving a calling card for the investigators/analysts to find you... You stole regardless of how you did it.

bpoyner 5mo ago
That's _bananas_.
- InexSquirrel 5mo ago
  But definitely not nuts.
Hilliard_Ohiooo 5mo ago
I think the point was that they COULDN'T have just walked out with them, BUT, by learning then going through the motions of a typical check out this A+++ hacker was able to bypass a normal security layer.
conductr 5mo ago
The visual risk of walking out without paying is much greater than the risk that anyone actually investigates AND tries to track him down for it. Back when I was a kid it was common to still just have simple price tag stickers on every single item. We’d pull off a cheap sticker and put it on an expensive item. If they noticed, we’d just shrug and say “oh Nevermind then” when they found the right price. The only problem was most cashiers actually knew all the prices of stuff and paid attention, believe it or not they even knew how to make change back in those days /s. So you couldn’t always get super aggressive.
- JCTheDenthog 5mo ago
  A year or two ago I had a cashier ring up my zucchini as cucumbers because he apparently couldn't tell the difference. Young guy, looked barely 18. I have no idea if he overcharged or undercharged me as a result, but I didn't care enough to point it out because he seemed like the type who would have needed 20 minutes to figure out how to change it (or would have needed to call down a manager for help) and I didn't want to waste any more of my time (or his).
  - ButlerianJihad 5mo ago
    I've had dates like that
    - fragmede 5mo ago
      Did it get rung up as a drupe?
- MisterTea 5mo ago
  > The only problem was most cashiers actually knew all the prices of stuff and paid attention, Yup. I was in a local super market and saw Tomahawk steaks priced at $4-6 each. It had to be a mistake but I figured I would give it shot and see if they noticed. Cashier looked at the price, did a confused double take and immediately called over the manager. Turns out the decimal point was off by one so my $4.50 tomahawk was really $45. I bought it anyway and it came out great in the oven.
  - TeMPOraL 5mo ago
    Did you pay the sticker price or the intended price? Over here in Poland we have a law that the store must sell you the good for the price it advertised, so in that case they'd be forced to accept $4.50 because of their mistake. May sound too biased in favor of the customer, but before that, the "errors" in price tags were more common.
    - MisterTea 5mo ago
      Intended price. Costly but it was too late as I already had steak on my mind.
      - lazide 5mo ago
        In most US states, you have the same rules.
      - codethief 5mo ago
        Might have been a marketing strategy. :-)
    - mrgoldenbrown 5mo ago
      We have similar rules in the US, but depends on your state. In mine they have to give you the price on at least one of the items but you can't demand they give you 100 of them at the wrong price. Or yes you can demand but they are not required to do so.
- forgotaccount3 5mo ago
  > The visual risk of walking out without paying is much greater than the risk that anyone actually investigates AND tries to track him down for it. So scan everything, then put it in the cart and walk off without putting in the credit card. Again, both are stealing but paying some fake, reduced rate is leaving your calling card at the scene of a crime.
  - Marsymars 5mo ago
    > So scan everything, then put it in the cart and walk off without putting in the credit card. I actually saw someone do this a couple weeks ago.
    - istjohn 5mo ago
      I'm absent minded enough to accidentally do this on a bad day. I haven't yet, to my knowledge.
  - conductr 5mo ago
    Calling card doesn’t actually mean anything without enforcement. My city police didn’t have time to investigate when someone kicked in my back door and fled once the alarm sounded. I really doubt they give a crap about looking me up and coming to cite me for misdemeanor charges. Anything that risks an employee might confront you in the store is a greater risk IMO. And, usually they light on the register is green (or a similar indicator) so they do know right then if you don’t pay.
    - ComputerGuru 5mo ago
      Police know which side their bread is buttered on. Target is famous for being to get local cops to do exactly what they need post-facto (now prosecutor is another story). I.E. just because police don’t “waste” time investigating a crime with $1000 of damage to your personal property does not mean they won’t dedicate the time to pursue $200 in losses for the local mega mart.
      - 5mo ago
dpoloncsak 5mo ago
This gives the ability to use the excuse "I didn't know how to use the machine, I thought I used it correctly, nobody ever trained me on this", where as just walking out does not (Not a lawyer, I'd imagine you know better here than I do)
crazygringo 5mo ago
Seriously. Especially since self-checkout is almost always with a card tied to your identity, not cash. Depending on the value, the police probably aren't going to show up at your address, but use that card again at the store in the future and you might find the security guard coming over. Or, like many stores, they wait for you to do it repeatedly until it adds up to enough for a felony instead of just a misdemeanor, and then they bring felony charges... The stores have cameras. Likely someone is well aware those weren't all bananas, and has it on video. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
- rkomorn 5mo ago
  I agree that they're well aware. I once got stopped at self checkout because I put two vegetables (peppers, IIRC) of different types in the same bag and weighed them together. They were the same price so it's not like I was trying to pull a fast one one anyone, but "the system" noticed and flagged me for someone to come over. This was pre-pandemic, and I'm sure they're not less capable now than before.
  - garciasn 5mo ago
    IKEA did this to me two years ago. Flagged me as not having paid the right amount. Turns out that they sell fake plants as one cost and the pot you put them in as another; even if they're put together. It was a difference of like $5 at most on a $400 bill. I suppose 1.25% is enough to pay someone in another country to monitor everything.
- rationalist 5mo ago
  Any lawyers here? > wait for you to do it repeatedly until it adds up to enough for a felony instead of just a misdemeanor Isn't there a concept in the legal system where you have to mitigate damages even if you're the victim? I can't think of the example off the top of my head that Steve Lehto (consumer lawyer on YouTube gave). I'm guessing people who steal from the stores aren't able to afford a decent lawyer, but I imagine a decent lawyer would ask the Target witness(es), why didn't you stop him after the first theft? Why did you keep letting him steal?
cogogo 5mo ago
I know people who regularly stole this way. They would usually work in pairs and one would leave a full cart near the exit and the other would walk out confidently. Worst case they figured they would just act the fool and either leave the cart or pay. Irked me that they did this but not enough to rat. I bet these days doing that with any kind of regularity would have you starring on much higher quality film.
alwa 5mo ago
I’d be interested in your book! I was of the impression that, in our golden age of individualized surveillance, merely interacting with the kiosk was enough to leave a facial-geometry calling card these days. I feel like I may have heard this from one of those Illinois BIPA class action suits [0], which reliably have a whiff of crackpot to them from a technical perspective. But it surely seems an obvious enough sort of application… [0] https://www.law360.com/articles/2372764/home-depot-s-self-checkout-kiosks-violate-bipa-suit-says https://www.law360.com/articles/2372764/home-depot-s-self-ch...
per1 5mo ago
What's the books name?

bpoyner 5mo ago

That's _bananas_.

InexSquirrel 5mo ago
But definitely not nuts.

Hilliard_Ohiooo 5mo ago

I think the point was that they COULDN'T have just walked out with them, BUT, by learning then going through the motions of a typical check out this A+++ hacker was able to bypass a normal security layer.

conductr 5mo ago

The visual risk of walking out without paying is much greater than the risk that anyone actually investigates AND tries to track him down for it. Back when I was a kid it was common to still just have simple price tag stickers on every single item. We’d pull off a cheap sticker and put it on an expensive item. If they noticed, we’d just shrug and say “oh Nevermind then” when they found the right price. The only problem was most cashiers actually knew all the prices of stuff and paid attention, believe it or not they even knew how to make change back in those days /s. So you couldn’t always get super aggressive.

JCTheDenthog 5mo ago
A year or two ago I had a cashier ring up my zucchini as cucumbers because he apparently couldn't tell the difference. Young guy, looked barely 18. I have no idea if he overcharged or undercharged me as a result, but I didn't care enough to point it out because he seemed like the type who would have needed 20 minutes to figure out how to change it (or would have needed to call down a manager for help) and I didn't want to waste any more of my time (or his).
- ButlerianJihad 5mo ago
  I've had dates like that
  - fragmede 5mo ago
    Did it get rung up as a drupe?
MisterTea 5mo ago
> The only problem was most cashiers actually knew all the prices of stuff and paid attention, Yup. I was in a local super market and saw Tomahawk steaks priced at $4-6 each. It had to be a mistake but I figured I would give it shot and see if they noticed. Cashier looked at the price, did a confused double take and immediately called over the manager. Turns out the decimal point was off by one so my $4.50 tomahawk was really $45. I bought it anyway and it came out great in the oven.
- TeMPOraL 5mo ago
  Did you pay the sticker price or the intended price? Over here in Poland we have a law that the store must sell you the good for the price it advertised, so in that case they'd be forced to accept $4.50 because of their mistake. May sound too biased in favor of the customer, but before that, the "errors" in price tags were more common.
  - MisterTea 5mo ago
    Intended price. Costly but it was too late as I already had steak on my mind.
    - lazide 5mo ago
      In most US states, you have the same rules.
    - codethief 5mo ago
      Might have been a marketing strategy. :-)
  - mrgoldenbrown 5mo ago
    We have similar rules in the US, but depends on your state. In mine they have to give you the price on at least one of the items but you can't demand they give you 100 of them at the wrong price. Or yes you can demand but they are not required to do so.
forgotaccount3 5mo ago
> The visual risk of walking out without paying is much greater than the risk that anyone actually investigates AND tries to track him down for it. So scan everything, then put it in the cart and walk off without putting in the credit card. Again, both are stealing but paying some fake, reduced rate is leaving your calling card at the scene of a crime.
- Marsymars 5mo ago
  > So scan everything, then put it in the cart and walk off without putting in the credit card. I actually saw someone do this a couple weeks ago.
  - istjohn 5mo ago
    I'm absent minded enough to accidentally do this on a bad day. I haven't yet, to my knowledge.
- conductr 5mo ago
  Calling card doesn’t actually mean anything without enforcement. My city police didn’t have time to investigate when someone kicked in my back door and fled once the alarm sounded. I really doubt they give a crap about looking me up and coming to cite me for misdemeanor charges. Anything that risks an employee might confront you in the store is a greater risk IMO. And, usually they light on the register is green (or a similar indicator) so they do know right then if you don’t pay.
  - ComputerGuru 5mo ago
    Police know which side their bread is buttered on. Target is famous for being to get local cops to do exactly what they need post-facto (now prosecutor is another story). I.E. just because police don’t “waste” time investigating a crime with $1000 of damage to your personal property does not mean they won’t dedicate the time to pursue $200 in losses for the local mega mart.
    - 5mo ago

dpoloncsak 5mo ago

This gives the ability to use the excuse "I didn't know how to use the machine, I thought I used it correctly, nobody ever trained me on this", where as just walking out does not (Not a lawyer, I'd imagine you know better here than I do)

crazygringo 5mo ago

Seriously. Especially since self-checkout is almost always with a card tied to your identity, not cash. Depending on the value, the police probably aren't going to show up at your address, but use that card again at the store in the future and you might find the security guard coming over. Or, like many stores, they wait for you to do it repeatedly until it adds up to enough for a felony instead of just a misdemeanor, and then they bring felony charges... The stores have cameras. Likely someone is well aware those weren't all bananas, and has it on video. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

rkomorn 5mo ago
I agree that they're well aware. I once got stopped at self checkout because I put two vegetables (peppers, IIRC) of different types in the same bag and weighed them together. They were the same price so it's not like I was trying to pull a fast one one anyone, but "the system" noticed and flagged me for someone to come over. This was pre-pandemic, and I'm sure they're not less capable now than before.
- garciasn 5mo ago
  IKEA did this to me two years ago. Flagged me as not having paid the right amount. Turns out that they sell fake plants as one cost and the pot you put them in as another; even if they're put together. It was a difference of like $5 at most on a $400 bill. I suppose 1.25% is enough to pay someone in another country to monitor everything.
rationalist 5mo ago
Any lawyers here? > wait for you to do it repeatedly until it adds up to enough for a felony instead of just a misdemeanor Isn't there a concept in the legal system where you have to mitigate damages even if you're the victim? I can't think of the example off the top of my head that Steve Lehto (consumer lawyer on YouTube gave). I'm guessing people who steal from the stores aren't able to afford a decent lawyer, but I imagine a decent lawyer would ask the Target witness(es), why didn't you stop him after the first theft? Why did you keep letting him steal?

cogogo 5mo ago

I know people who regularly stole this way. They would usually work in pairs and one would leave a full cart near the exit and the other would walk out confidently. Worst case they figured they would just act the fool and either leave the cart or pay. Irked me that they did this but not enough to rat. I bet these days doing that with any kind of regularity would have you starring on much higher quality film.

alwa 5mo ago

I’d be interested in your book! I was of the impression that, in our golden age of individualized surveillance, merely interacting with the kiosk was enough to leave a facial-geometry calling card these days. I feel like I may have heard this from one of those Illinois BIPA class action suits [0], which reliably have a whiff of crackpot to them from a technical perspective. But it surely seems an obvious enough sort of application… [0] https://www.law360.com/articles/2372764/home-depot-s-self-checkout-kiosks-violate-bipa-suit-says https://www.law360.com/articles/2372764/home-depot-s-self-ch...

per1 5mo ago

What's the books name?