7 ms·

> El Salvador is the worst example, as they have been bribed by the IMF to get rid of bitcoin. So the 'true cryptocurrency' hasn't been tried yet, eh? ;)

littlecranky67 6mo ago
That was not my argument at all. First I said, I don't see bitcoin as currency at all. Second, major nation states have always tryed to use their power to force other nations to use their currency (petrodollar, cough). This is nothing specific to crypto, but something also specific to traditional fiat currencies. Any high-volatile asset such as bitcoin is IMHO not suited as currency. The good news is, with the bitcoin taproot upgrade and latest lightning standards, you can actually issue stablecoins over bitcoin's taproot asset protocol, and send it over the existing lightning network. My bet is on stablecoins-over-lightning as currency, and bitcoin as store of value. One blockchain to rule them all, other chains not need (for financial transactions at least).
- KaiserPro 6mo ago
  Bitcoin takes to long to settle, and whilst its settling will need some sort of escrow service to take the risk out for small retailers and consumers. Plus the global transaction rate would also stop it really being useful for day to day spending for a country.
  - littlecranky67 6mo ago
    You replied to me but did not address lightninng. Lightning settles instantly. And you DO transfer bitcoin.
    - rglullis 6mo ago
      > And you DO transfer bitcoin. No, Layer-2 systems only transfer cryptographically signed IOUs between nodes. Settlement only happens when these IOUs are cashed out, and to cash out you need a transaction in the blockchain layer, so the point about latency still stands.
      - KaiserPro 6mo ago
        THis is the issue, until its settled in the chain, then you are down to trusting the 2nd layer. Anything offchain has a whole bunch of issues that are either naively or deliberately obscured by the fact that it _eventually_ writes to the blockchain. The exchanges that offer instant settlement are circumventing trust by doing the settlement for you. You get speed, but not security that they have done what they have said they have.
        rglullis 6mo ago
        Well, to be fair to OP: small business and retailers are also not getting "real" money when they accept payment via credit cards from Visa/MasterCard. To be honest I think the issue here is not due to speed of settlement, but layer-2 is not an acceptable substitute because it does not allow reversability. For the merchants it's good that they are getting the money right away, but most consumers will not dare to pay anything via layer-2 networks simply because they won't have any recourse in case they want to undo the transaction.
        littlecranky67 6mo ago
        You can implement reverseability with a credit system, such as Visa/Mastercard. It should not be implemented in base layer or layer-2. It is basically an escrow system.
        rglullis 6mo ago
        So now you are proposing to build yet-another piece to an already complex system just so we can justify the existence of your beloved blockchain in the first place. How long it's going to take you to realize that even if we built everything you are asking for, we are STILL going to end up with a system that is not as capital-efficient as the status quo?
        robcohen 6mo ago
        This is just untrue. If someone cheats in lightning, and you demonstrate they cheated as you describe, then you get all of the locked BTC as a reward. This is on layer 1. Essentially you can easily prove your nonce was signed more recently.

littlecranky67 6mo ago

That was not my argument at all. First I said, I don't see bitcoin as currency at all. Second, major nation states have always tryed to use their power to force other nations to use their currency (petrodollar, cough). This is nothing specific to crypto, but something also specific to traditional fiat currencies. Any high-volatile asset such as bitcoin is IMHO not suited as currency. The good news is, with the bitcoin taproot upgrade and latest lightning standards, you can actually issue stablecoins over bitcoin's taproot asset protocol, and send it over the existing lightning network. My bet is on stablecoins-over-lightning as currency, and bitcoin as store of value. One blockchain to rule them all, other chains not need (for financial transactions at least).

KaiserPro 6mo ago
Bitcoin takes to long to settle, and whilst its settling will need some sort of escrow service to take the risk out for small retailers and consumers. Plus the global transaction rate would also stop it really being useful for day to day spending for a country.
- littlecranky67 6mo ago
  You replied to me but did not address lightninng. Lightning settles instantly. And you DO transfer bitcoin.
  - rglullis 6mo ago
    > And you DO transfer bitcoin. No, Layer-2 systems only transfer cryptographically signed IOUs between nodes. Settlement only happens when these IOUs are cashed out, and to cash out you need a transaction in the blockchain layer, so the point about latency still stands.
    - KaiserPro 6mo ago
      THis is the issue, until its settled in the chain, then you are down to trusting the 2nd layer. Anything offchain has a whole bunch of issues that are either naively or deliberately obscured by the fact that it _eventually_ writes to the blockchain. The exchanges that offer instant settlement are circumventing trust by doing the settlement for you. You get speed, but not security that they have done what they have said they have.
      - rglullis 6mo ago
        Well, to be fair to OP: small business and retailers are also not getting "real" money when they accept payment via credit cards from Visa/MasterCard. To be honest I think the issue here is not due to speed of settlement, but layer-2 is not an acceptable substitute because it does not allow reversability. For the merchants it's good that they are getting the money right away, but most consumers will not dare to pay anything via layer-2 networks simply because they won't have any recourse in case they want to undo the transaction.
        littlecranky67 6mo ago
        You can implement reverseability with a credit system, such as Visa/Mastercard. It should not be implemented in base layer or layer-2. It is basically an escrow system.
        rglullis 6mo ago
        So now you are proposing to build yet-another piece to an already complex system just so we can justify the existence of your beloved blockchain in the first place. How long it's going to take you to realize that even if we built everything you are asking for, we are STILL going to end up with a system that is not as capital-efficient as the status quo?
      - robcohen 6mo ago
        This is just untrue. If someone cheats in lightning, and you demonstrate they cheated as you describe, then you get all of the locked BTC as a reward. This is on layer 1. Essentially you can easily prove your nonce was signed more recently.